Peyton Jenkins
Guest
Does anybody know the names of the passengers who were shot? And how many were there, anyway? 2? 3 if you count the suicide?
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Who was shot
- Thread starter Peyton Jenkins
- Start date
Michael H. Standart
Member
We don't know if any passengers...or crew for that matter, were shot at all. We know that shots were fired, but nobody knows who or even if they were aimed at anybody, much less hit anybody. You might try reading the article Shots In The Dark by Bill Wormstedt and Tad Fitch. They've done some very thorough research on this.
Peyton Jenkins
Guest
Thanks a lot.
I appreciate all the help everybody here has been giving me with my crazy questions.
Smith Mize
Member
I think that if anyone was shot at all, it would've been accounted for by the crew (that is if they didn't fire) and most likely reported. But still, like Mr. Standart says, we don't know. We weren't there after all.
- Smith sammith77@msn.com
- Smith sammith77@msn.com
Kyrila Scully
Member
There are too many witness accounts of shootings by surviving passengers to be ignored. The fact that surviving officers do not corroborate it is suspect, especially concerning the "whitewash" (their own word) that was done at the hearings. Possibly the officers kept quiet about the shootings because 1) it would alarm future paying passengers and keep them from sailing on a WSL ship, 2) it would alarm the general public giving the perception of failure to control the mob that was rushing the lifeboats, and 3) the investigation could turn on them to seek manslaugter or homicide charges. Something to think about.
Kyrila
Kyrila
Inger Sheil
Member
Alternatively, Kyrila, if there were shootings (and I'm still not utterly convinced, although there is evidence that this may have been the case) - fatal or not - most if not all of the surviving officers would not have been in a position to witness this event. Some passengers, e.g. Gracie, publicly denied rumours of shootings...that doesn't mean that either it didn't happen or that the witness was lying, just that they didn't necessarily either witness it themselves or believe the stories circulating aboard the Carpathia (their experience with shipboard rumour or gossip, rife at the best of times, might have made them skeptical indeed). Rather than trying to cover up, Lowe, Boxhall and Pitman might simply not have known for sure themselves what happened. Lightoller, on the other hand, is reported to have known and spoken of to intimate friends about a crewman shot in the jaw (I've come across this in 1912 newspaper accounts as well, although some versions of the story have it that the man was not killed by the bullet).
'Whitewash' was Lightoller's word, not Boxhall, Pitman or Lowe's, and he used it as applied to the BOT's conduct at the British inquiry - not to the American inquiry.
Possibly they knew something and kept quiet - or possibly they didn't know anything about it. For what it's worth, no information I've received from the families of Lowe, Boxhall or Pitman indicates any admission on their parts re. a cover up on this point. I'm not suggesting that's absolute evidence of anything, but it is something to bear in mind.
'Whitewash' was Lightoller's word, not Boxhall, Pitman or Lowe's, and he used it as applied to the BOT's conduct at the British inquiry - not to the American inquiry.
Possibly they knew something and kept quiet - or possibly they didn't know anything about it. For what it's worth, no information I've received from the families of Lowe, Boxhall or Pitman indicates any admission on their parts re. a cover up on this point. I'm not suggesting that's absolute evidence of anything, but it is something to bear in mind.
Kyrila Scully
Member
Good point, Inger. Best to look at things from all perspectives.
Kyrila
Kyrila
Peter Engberg-Klarström
Member
Inger, I absolutely agree with you. I am of the opinion, however, that there was no shooting aimed at somebody. We know that Lowe fired a gun when No 14 was lowered - into the air! I have a feeling that this was a shock to some people, e g Eugene Daly (one of only two witnesses I have come across who 'saw' someone being shot). My belief is that Mr Daly witnessed the shootings at boat 14, more or less simultaneously seeing one man turned out of boat 14 being 'cared for' by passengers standing near the boat, believing the man was shot. Mr Daly said he helped two Irish girls into a port boat, so he was near the area at any rate. This is, however, my theory and nothing more. I just don't believe anybody was shot dead.
Best regards,
Peter
Best regards,
Peter
Inger Sheil
Member
No worries, Kyrila!
I see where you're coming from, Peter, and doubts like those you raise are one reason I tend to resist any certitude on whether anyone stood in the way of a bullet that night. There is other material in addition to the Daly account, as you know - Rheims was one of the few in the right place at the right time to witness the purported suicide. But, as I indicated, others on board were reported to have witnessed crew being shot - some, indeed, stating that they were first hand witnesses to such an event (e.g. a crewman who - so it is alleged - had part of his jaw shot away).
I'll see if I can dig up one of these newspaper accounts this weekend - I seem to recall coming across it again in my files when I was looking for something else, and meant to put it aside for posting. It came from one of the crewman upon arrival on the Lapland in Plymouth but - unfortunately - IIRC the source wasn't named. Elizabeth Gibbons had a somewhat fuller version, but while I've read her partially unpublished ms 'To the Bitter End' I don't have a copy - perhaps someone who does so could look it up and cite her source for the crewman with shot jaw story.
James McGiffin, Marine Superintendant in Cobh and old shipmate of Smith, Lightoller and Murdoch, related to his children that Lightoller had intimated to him that a crewman was shot. This was related to Diana Bristow, and a Murdoch researcher passed a similar version on to me that originated with one of the other McGiffin children.
As ever, it's all terribly ephemeral and often involves vague sources, hearsay and rumour - sometimes across many years and even decades. However, one can't entirely dismiss it.
I see where you're coming from, Peter, and doubts like those you raise are one reason I tend to resist any certitude on whether anyone stood in the way of a bullet that night. There is other material in addition to the Daly account, as you know - Rheims was one of the few in the right place at the right time to witness the purported suicide. But, as I indicated, others on board were reported to have witnessed crew being shot - some, indeed, stating that they were first hand witnesses to such an event (e.g. a crewman who - so it is alleged - had part of his jaw shot away).
I'll see if I can dig up one of these newspaper accounts this weekend - I seem to recall coming across it again in my files when I was looking for something else, and meant to put it aside for posting. It came from one of the crewman upon arrival on the Lapland in Plymouth but - unfortunately - IIRC the source wasn't named. Elizabeth Gibbons had a somewhat fuller version, but while I've read her partially unpublished ms 'To the Bitter End' I don't have a copy - perhaps someone who does so could look it up and cite her source for the crewman with shot jaw story.
James McGiffin, Marine Superintendant in Cobh and old shipmate of Smith, Lightoller and Murdoch, related to his children that Lightoller had intimated to him that a crewman was shot. This was related to Diana Bristow, and a Murdoch researcher passed a similar version on to me that originated with one of the other McGiffin children.
As ever, it's all terribly ephemeral and often involves vague sources, hearsay and rumour - sometimes across many years and even decades. However, one can't entirely dismiss it.
Katherine Laura Robinson
Member
A very old topic, but I think this is the type of board on which it's considered better to reply to an old topic than to start a new one on the same subject.
I have an idea about the shot-in-the jaw story. I've only seen two versions of it- the ones printed in The Mammoth Book of the Titanic. Both accounts are by anonymous stewards, who could have been the same person for all we know. One claims to have seen seven people shot; the other says he saw a "Dago" shot in the chin, in addition to Murdoch's suicide and the fate of Captain Smith. The second one's identity is more specific- he's a first-class saloon steward. Curiously, he doesn't even claim to have been with the ship until the end. This sentence jumped out at me: "In my own boat, a dinghy, a lady put her arm on my shoulder, and I dare say she thought she was helping me [row]." A "dinghy" is what some of the crew called the Emergency Boats, and I suspect that this fellow is none other than James Johnston, the only first-class saloon steward whom I know escaped in Boat 2. He uses the word himself at the British Inquiry: "She [Boat 2] is not a big one, she is a dinghy." Johnston seems to have been a colorful character- that's why I remembered him and thought of him when I read the account. The guy managed to work Scottish pride, billiards, and horse racing into his Inquiry testimony.
I can picture him having some fun with the reporters...and it wouldn't be the only time. There's a newspaper story here on ET in which Johnston claims to have witnesses Smith's final moments.
A few other possible connection between Johnston and Mystery Steward...
*Both take time to praise Thomas Andrews. M.S. says that Andrews "was here, there and everywhere, helping always and never troubling about his own life." Johnston did see Andrews that night and mentions at the Inquiry how much the crew liked him.
*Both say they had trouble getting the ladies into the boats.
*M.S. complains about the "terrible falsehoods" some of the ladies told afterward, exaggerating how much they helped with the rowing. Johnston was one of the rowers in Boat 2 and may have felt insulted by allegations that stewards lied about knowing how to row in order to save themselves. (He is questioned about the effectiveness of his rowing at the Inquiry.)
Personally, I'm not too crazy about the jaw story.
What bugs me about the Lightoller/McGiffin conversation is that Lights also supposedly told McGiffin that Ismay had been pressuring Captain Smith to go faster. To me, it doesn't sound like something Lightoller would say. Even in his autobiography, when he was retired from White Star and willing to admit to some "whitewashing," he still denied the "speed record" business and tried to cover for Ismay. Granted, that was a book and this was a private conversation, but I can't really see Lightoller blaming Ismay for the collision.
-Kate
I have an idea about the shot-in-the jaw story. I've only seen two versions of it- the ones printed in The Mammoth Book of the Titanic. Both accounts are by anonymous stewards, who could have been the same person for all we know. One claims to have seen seven people shot; the other says he saw a "Dago" shot in the chin, in addition to Murdoch's suicide and the fate of Captain Smith. The second one's identity is more specific- he's a first-class saloon steward. Curiously, he doesn't even claim to have been with the ship until the end. This sentence jumped out at me: "In my own boat, a dinghy, a lady put her arm on my shoulder, and I dare say she thought she was helping me [row]." A "dinghy" is what some of the crew called the Emergency Boats, and I suspect that this fellow is none other than James Johnston, the only first-class saloon steward whom I know escaped in Boat 2. He uses the word himself at the British Inquiry: "She [Boat 2] is not a big one, she is a dinghy." Johnston seems to have been a colorful character- that's why I remembered him and thought of him when I read the account. The guy managed to work Scottish pride, billiards, and horse racing into his Inquiry testimony.
A few other possible connection between Johnston and Mystery Steward...
*Both take time to praise Thomas Andrews. M.S. says that Andrews "was here, there and everywhere, helping always and never troubling about his own life." Johnston did see Andrews that night and mentions at the Inquiry how much the crew liked him.
*Both say they had trouble getting the ladies into the boats.
*M.S. complains about the "terrible falsehoods" some of the ladies told afterward, exaggerating how much they helped with the rowing. Johnston was one of the rowers in Boat 2 and may have felt insulted by allegations that stewards lied about knowing how to row in order to save themselves. (He is questioned about the effectiveness of his rowing at the Inquiry.)
Personally, I'm not too crazy about the jaw story.
What bugs me about the Lightoller/McGiffin conversation is that Lights also supposedly told McGiffin that Ismay had been pressuring Captain Smith to go faster. To me, it doesn't sound like something Lightoller would say. Even in his autobiography, when he was retired from White Star and willing to admit to some "whitewashing," he still denied the "speed record" business and tried to cover for Ismay. Granted, that was a book and this was a private conversation, but I can't really see Lightoller blaming Ismay for the collision.
-Kate
monica e. hall
Member
Wow, Katherine, have you covered some ground. I will let others, better qualified than me, reply. However, may I just say how much I appreciate your first sentence.
Inger Sheil
Member
Very interesting thoughts, Kate! I don't think I'd seen Johnston suggested as a possibility for the source of the stories, but he certainly seems like a candidate. Of course - as you know - if he was a source for the jaw-shot, it would seem to contradict his evidence at the Brit Inq: '3471. Was anybody that wanted to get on that boat kept back? - Not at all, certainly not' (unless he was playing pedantic games, and it was not Boat 2, but another boat that the man with the shot jaw was prevented from entering!). This raises all sorts of questions about whether he was telling the truth under oath.
You're quite right that 'dinghy' was used in a couple of instances to describe the emergency boats 1 and 2 (also cutters or accident boats). I do wonder, though, if there's a possibility that the term might also be extended casually (particularly among victualling rather than deck crew) to the collapsible boats, particularly A and B, in which case the possibilities are opened up to other saloon stewards such as Edward Brown. Thomas Whiteley - steward in the First Class Dining Saloon - might also be a possibility. We know he was talking to the newspapers, and that he claimed to have seen men shot.
While I think it's a factor to consider in the mix (particularly as there seem to be two different, and possibily independant, sets of sources that agree on the point of a jaw-shot), I'm not too enthusiastic about the jaw-shot story either, as the evidence put forward for it thus far either comes from unnamed sources in newspaper accounts, or from hearsay connected with Lightoller. Lightoller, in the versions I've heard, did not (to my recollection) claim to have witnessed the incident first hand - in which case his information could have come from the same source the newspapers were deriving their stories from.
If anyone has Gibbons' MS perhaps they could look up the source she cites for it (and she was skeptical about it, IIRC). I believe - from dodgy memory! - that it was another newspaper account. I'll also have a scan through my notebooks and see if I jotted down the date/newspaper where I came across the jaw-shot story in the UK and see if it's the same piece, or - if it's a new one - if it has commonality with the 'Mammoth Book' accounts. I've kicked myself ever since I saw it for not copying it, but I was narrowly focused at the time on a particular angle.
The McGiffin family certainly believe that Lightoller did tell James McGiffin about the jaw shot, but there seem to be some elements of confusion in the story - Senan Molony has been trying to trace McGiffin's exact position and dates of tenure in Cobh, and is turning up some anomolous results. Don't know where his work is up to there, but there is some question over the suggested dates McGiffin was living there (e.g. those Earl cited in the 'Gunshots' article on ET, which I believe are derived from Bristow who in turn had them from the McGiffin family). There are other elements in the family's oral traditions that are problematical as well - one son claimed that Smith and Lightoller came ashore on the final call in Queenstown and he was dandled on their knees. It might have happened on other voyages, but not on that one.
Sorry if this response is a bit all over the map - it's been a while since I've looked at this issue and I'm cranking the old memory up to speed on it to try and remember all the threads that go into it. Very good topic, though - perhaps some other folks have helpful input.
You're quite right that 'dinghy' was used in a couple of instances to describe the emergency boats 1 and 2 (also cutters or accident boats). I do wonder, though, if there's a possibility that the term might also be extended casually (particularly among victualling rather than deck crew) to the collapsible boats, particularly A and B, in which case the possibilities are opened up to other saloon stewards such as Edward Brown. Thomas Whiteley - steward in the First Class Dining Saloon - might also be a possibility. We know he was talking to the newspapers, and that he claimed to have seen men shot.
While I think it's a factor to consider in the mix (particularly as there seem to be two different, and possibily independant, sets of sources that agree on the point of a jaw-shot), I'm not too enthusiastic about the jaw-shot story either, as the evidence put forward for it thus far either comes from unnamed sources in newspaper accounts, or from hearsay connected with Lightoller. Lightoller, in the versions I've heard, did not (to my recollection) claim to have witnessed the incident first hand - in which case his information could have come from the same source the newspapers were deriving their stories from.
If anyone has Gibbons' MS perhaps they could look up the source she cites for it (and she was skeptical about it, IIRC). I believe - from dodgy memory! - that it was another newspaper account. I'll also have a scan through my notebooks and see if I jotted down the date/newspaper where I came across the jaw-shot story in the UK and see if it's the same piece, or - if it's a new one - if it has commonality with the 'Mammoth Book' accounts. I've kicked myself ever since I saw it for not copying it, but I was narrowly focused at the time on a particular angle.
The McGiffin family certainly believe that Lightoller did tell James McGiffin about the jaw shot, but there seem to be some elements of confusion in the story - Senan Molony has been trying to trace McGiffin's exact position and dates of tenure in Cobh, and is turning up some anomolous results. Don't know where his work is up to there, but there is some question over the suggested dates McGiffin was living there (e.g. those Earl cited in the 'Gunshots' article on ET, which I believe are derived from Bristow who in turn had them from the McGiffin family). There are other elements in the family's oral traditions that are problematical as well - one son claimed that Smith and Lightoller came ashore on the final call in Queenstown and he was dandled on their knees. It might have happened on other voyages, but not on that one.
Sorry if this response is a bit all over the map - it's been a while since I've looked at this issue and I'm cranking the old memory up to speed on it to try and remember all the threads that go into it. Very good topic, though - perhaps some other folks have helpful input.
Katherine Laura Robinson
Member
Monica, replying to old topics was discouraged on the last message board I belonged to. Policies vary, so I wasn't sure...
Inger, I'm pretty sure he's not talking about A or B, since he says that a lady tried to help him row. A and B weren't doing too much rowing, and there weren't many ladies hanging about on them. Whitely seems to have been in no condition to row anything anyway. Brown rowed in Boat 14 after he was picked up, but there weren't any ladies in it at the time...unless one counts Charlotte Collyer's imagination. ^_~
Even if the Mystery Steward wasn't Johnston, the fact remains that he says he left the ship in a lifeboat, making him unlikely to have seen Smith's and Murdoch's last moments. If he was fibbing about that, he was probably fibbing about the shooting as well. I think he was just enjoying the press attention, having no idea what a headache it would give us decades later.
By the way, did you find anyone with a copy of that 1929 Beesley book? *puppy eyes* I didn't have any luck in the book forum.
-Kate
Inger, I'm pretty sure he's not talking about A or B, since he says that a lady tried to help him row. A and B weren't doing too much rowing, and there weren't many ladies hanging about on them. Whitely seems to have been in no condition to row anything anyway. Brown rowed in Boat 14 after he was picked up, but there weren't any ladies in it at the time...unless one counts Charlotte Collyer's imagination. ^_~
Even if the Mystery Steward wasn't Johnston, the fact remains that he says he left the ship in a lifeboat, making him unlikely to have seen Smith's and Murdoch's last moments. If he was fibbing about that, he was probably fibbing about the shooting as well. I think he was just enjoying the press attention, having no idea what a headache it would give us decades later.
-Kate
Inger Sheil
Member
Sorry - you're absolutely right, Kate. I was operating off a vague memory of the piece I read some time ago, and not taking into consideration the women in the boat in the accounts you cited.
I'd suggest C as a possibility, as we know there were reports of gunshots in the vicinity, but there seem to be a dearth of steward candidates (same with D). There was one woman in A transferred to 14 - Rhoda Abbott - but I doubt she was in much condition to help with the oars.
I'd like to have another look at Gibbons' account, as she analysed the story in some depth and was skeptical on several points. IIRC, one thing she addressed was the nature of the wound itself. The man was supposed to have been moving around after he was shot - Gibbons suggested that if you'd had part of your jaw shot away by a Webley, you wouldn't be very active.
I haven't asked Pat Cook yet about the '29 Beesley book, but have high hopes that he might have a copy (or TMIB? or Fi? Calling the bookphiles...).
I'd suggest C as a possibility, as we know there were reports of gunshots in the vicinity, but there seem to be a dearth of steward candidates (same with D). There was one woman in A transferred to 14 - Rhoda Abbott - but I doubt she was in much condition to help with the oars.
I'd like to have another look at Gibbons' account, as she analysed the story in some depth and was skeptical on several points. IIRC, one thing she addressed was the nature of the wound itself. The man was supposed to have been moving around after he was shot - Gibbons suggested that if you'd had part of your jaw shot away by a Webley, you wouldn't be very active.
I haven't asked Pat Cook yet about the '29 Beesley book, but have high hopes that he might have a copy (or TMIB? or Fi? Calling the bookphiles...).
Parks Stephenson
Member
Inger,
Assuming that we operate similarly in that you check E-T at work and your e-mail at home, I need to get word to you immediately:
In reference to our last e-mail exchange, I need your info no later than Tuesday night, California time. You have an e-mail in your Inbox at home explaining why.
Sorry for the interruption.
Parks
Assuming that we operate similarly in that you check E-T at work and your e-mail at home, I need to get word to you immediately:
In reference to our last e-mail exchange, I need your info no later than Tuesday night, California time. You have an e-mail in your Inbox at home explaining why.
Sorry for the interruption.
Parks
