Guns on the Titanic

[Steve Shortman]

I cannot see a thread on this subject so apologies if there is one & I've missed it.

Having just read "shots in the dark" by Bill Wormstedt & tad Fitch I am intrigued to know a little bit more about the guns. Can anyone provide answers to the following:

1. Was the storing of guns on board passenger liners standard White Star Line company policy?

2. If it was how were the number of guns determined (size of vessel/No of passengers/No of officers)?

3. Were there any company guidelines as to when and in what circumstances guns were to be deployed or was it all left to the Captains discretion?

4. How many guns were at the disposal of the First Officer that night(who's duty it was to receive firearms according to Lightoller)?

5. Have any guns been recovered from the debris field?

 

[Bob Godfrey]

There are other threads, Steve. Try using the keyword 'Webley' in the search engine.

Basically yes, the provision of firearms was company policy - all the ships of the Line carried Webley pistols with 'White Star Line' stamped on the butt straps. One of the traditional reasons for carrying guns was to quell mutinies, of which junior officers were often the ringleaders! So the policy was generally to carry a small stock of handguns sufficient only for the most trusted (ie the senior) officers. This fits the evidence that there were 4 pistols available and these were issued to Smith, Wilde, Murdoch and Lightoller.

But any member of the crew might have owned a handgun for personal protection in foreign ports. We know that Lowe did, and he was probably not the only one. The British Government recommended (but did not insist) that shipping lines should rule against crew members bringing unofficial weapons like guns, daggers and brass knuckles on board, but since these were generally concealed for use only on shore leave and the standard fine was only 5 shillings it's likely that many of the crew members had some kind of weapon tucked away in their kit.

Certainly none of the pistols have been recovered from the wreck or the debris field.

 

[Timothy Trower]

We know that Lightoller told of the weight of his revolver weighting him down in the water so much that he pulled it from his pocket and let it drop into the water. We can surmise that Murdoch was holding his revolver when either he shot himself or was simply overwhelmed by the wave sweeping across the boat deck.

Since there is no conclusive evidence that either Smith or Wilde used their guns or even had them out, it can be concluded that their guns were still on their persons when they perished.

Of course, the body of Michel Navratil was found in the water with a loaded revolver ... the only instance of that that I can remember right off hand.

So, in the debris field, we can assume that Lightoller's revolver marks the spot at which the Titanic's bow sank beneath the surface -- find it, and that spot is marked. Again, only a surmise, but I am one who does believe that Murdoch killed himself, and his reflex action would have caused his arm to throw the gun away from his body -- again, probably falling quickly to the bottom. (Okay, it might have been Wilde.) Either way, there should be two revolvers fairly close together on the bottom of the ocean.

[MAB Note: This thread, originally placed in the "General Titanica" topic, has been moved to this pre-exisiting subtopic addressing the same subject. MAB]

 

[jamie hague]

Hi everyone! Does anyone know if it was standard proceedure for merchant ships to carry weapons? If so where would they have been kept aboard Titanic? Would the crew have had any training in their use I wonder? Finally what was the duty of the master at arms? Cheers J

 

[Tom McLeod]

We have a bit of a discussion about this under the Gilded Age post and then the Thread The Legacy, History and Service of the Webely revolver. On Titanic they were kept in the 1st officer's cabin which was Lightoller's post, until Wilde joined the crew late and shuffled the crew around. Chief Officer Wilde asked for the guns to be distributed later in the night. I'd check out the other posting mentioned and maybe address any further questions there.

[Moderator's Note: This message and the one immediately above it, originally a separate thread, have been moved to this pre-existing thread, one of several addressing the same subject. MAB]

 

[Bob Godfrey]

Jamie, the Master at Arms on a merchant ship has a similar role to a policeman ashore - the maintenance of order and discipline and if necessary the restraint of anybody who persistently misbehaves. His title is a traditional one and does not imply that he is himself armed during the normal course of his duties, or that he has access to or responsibilities connected with the ship's stock of weapons, though that was the case on some merchant ships particularly in earlier times.

It was generally the responsibility of a designated senior officer to take charge of the ship's stock of firearms and ammunition and to maintain them in good order ready for use. But only the Captain could authorise such use, though obviously such an order would be passed down the chain of command. Were the officers specifically trained in the use of arms? I very much doubt it, but an experienced officer could be assumed to have a basic familiarity with most means of causing mayhem.

 

[jamie hague]

Thanks Bob and Tom, very interesting information. Cheers J

 

[Tom McLeod]

Sure, there is a lot of information in here, a good look around usually will help you.

 

[George L. Lorton]

the body of Michel Navratil was found in the water with a loaded revolver ...

Yikes! I wonder how many other passengers on The Titanic were "Packing Iron"? Even back then you'd never know what kind of mayhem you'd run into. Of course Navratil was taking (Kidnapping) his sons away from his wife to America under an assumed name and so he might of been expecting trouble in regard of that.

 

[Tom McLeod]

Mr. Navratil is the only body reported to have a pistol on it. Lowe had his own gun. The Mark IV that the officers used went where ever they did. Purser McElroy in some accounts is seen firing a gun straight up in the air as the final boats where trying to be launched. Although there are a lot of people who think the Purser could have been mistaken for another officer. McElroy's body was found, but no mention of gun being with it was mentioned. Lightoller let his sink as he found it heavy to swim with. Maybe all the Webley's had much the same fate? I think there could have been other passengers or crew members with personal weapons because in that age it was a time when people did carry guns more. Either the other weapon carriers bodies weren't recovered, were and the guns had since been washed off the body or dispossed of. This is a pretty long subject already covered in some threads. It's a likely we won't know anymore than we do type of thread.

 

[George L. Lorton]

I think there could have been other passengers or crew members with personal weapons because in that age it was a time when people did carry guns more.

That's what I was thinking. I wonder if any of the surviving passengers were carrying peacemakers?

 

[Michael H. Standart]

>>I wonder if any of the surviving passengers were carrying peacemakers?<<

There is mention of one story of a man in a lifeboat who encountered another who had a weapon and offered him the use of it after he and his wife were through with it. The name escapes me at the moment but it seems obvious that IF this story is true, the owner of said firearm was considering it's use to take his own life if rescue was not forthcoming.

In this particular day and age, they had some very different attitudes towards personal weapons then what you see today. Their idea of "Gun Control" was putting every shot on target. Posession of a weapon would not have been considered especially remarkable.

 

[Michael Findlay]

Hi Michael,

The man who had the weapon was Norman Campbell Chambers, who was in boat #5 with his wife. He offered it to fellow survivor, Karl Behr, after he was "finished" with it. Ironically, both Chambers and Behr attended the same prep school in New Jersey. Behr later went on to say that Chambers, who he didn't name in his account, was very calm during their conversation!

Interesting story.

Regards,

Mike Findlay

 

[Michael H. Standart]

>>The man who had the weapon was Norman Campbell Chambers...<<

Ahhhhh...thanks for that.

Fortunately, they didn't need that Final Friend.

 

[Michael Findlay]

So true, Michael.

If one reads a biography and sees a photo of Norman Campbell Chambers, he would appear highly unlikely to be carrying a weapon. He looked like a bookish character, somewhat shy in appearance wearing spectacles. He looked more like a librarian than an engineer. His family related that not only was he was a friendly and kind man, he had a gentle spirit as well. You almost have to wonder if he would have had the guts to use the weapon if the situation had gotten worse for the occupants of boat #5.

Some various accounts of Baron von Drachstedt (Alfred Nourney) describe his having a gun in boat #7. It is hard to say for sure since there are so many conflicting stories regarding "the Baron."

Kind regards,

Mike Findlay