Where was Lightoller when the Titanic left Southampton?

[Gordon Mooneyhan]

I recall reading on this site that, according to White Star Line regulations, the ship's second officer was supposed to be in the Crow's Nest when the ship was leaving a harbor (I assume also when arriving). Yet, according to On A Sea of Glass (p 75), "Chief Officer Wilde was at the head of the Forecastle, overseeing the crew working on the mooring lines. Second Officer Lightoller was a bit further aft on the Forecastle, working under Wilde's direction." Which is the correct location of where Lightoller was when the Titanic left Southampton?

 

[Thomas Krom]

I recall reading on this site that, according to White Star Line regulations, the ship's second officer was supposed to be in the Crow's Nest when the ship was leaving a harbor (I assume also when arriving). Yet, according to On A Sea of Glass (p 75), "Chief Officer Wilde was at the head of the Forecastle, overseeing the crew working on the mooring lines. Second Officer Lightoller was a bit further aft on the Forecastle, working under Wilde's direction." Which is the correct location of where Lightoller was when the Titanic left Southampton?

Second officer Lightoller departure position was in the crow's next according to the White Star Line officers' handbook:

45.-Watches at Sea.

With a view to increased efficiency, five Officers are carried on all steamers of the Line, viz., Chief, 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th. The three seniors are the bridge Officers, and divide the time into three watches of two hours' duration, i.e., each will have two hours on the bridge in charge of the ship, followed by four hours below. The Chief Officer shall keep the first two hours of the middle watch, say from midnight until two a.m., to be followed by the 1st Officer, he being followed by the 2nd Officer, and so on in the same rotation for each 24 hours. The two Junior Officers will keep watch and watch with the seamen, four hours on and four hours off, one having charge of the port, and the other of the starboard watch, and to be under the direction of the bridge Officer for the time being. When all hands are at stations entering or leaving port, the Officers are to be stationed as under: Chief Officer ... On the forecastle head. 1st , ... Aft or on the after bridge. 2nd ... Look out crow's nest. 3rd … At con. standard compass. 4th ... On bridge with Commander, in charge of telegraph. The watches are to be equally divided, and the ship is never to be left without an Officer in charge of the deck, either at sea or in harbour; and no Officer is, on any occasion, to leave the deck until he is relieved. Officers are expected, when performing the duties of the ship, or when at their different stations, to preserve silence among the men, and to see that the orders from the bridge or deck are executed with promptitude, and without confusion or noise. At sea, when the Officer of the watch believes the ship to be running into danger, it is his duty to act, at once, upon his own responsibility; at the same time he is immediately to pass the word to call the Commander. The Chief, First, and Second Officers are never to give up charge of the bridge during their respective watches, unless with the express permission of the Commander. When the watch is relieved, the Officer in charge of the watch going off duty is to be responsible that the correct course is passed to the Quartermaster relieving. This should be done in the presence of the Officer relieving, who is to satisfy himself that it is being steered. When the watch is changed, it is to be understood that the Officer who is being relieved is to remain on the bridge and in charge during the change, that he is to see that the seamen placed as look-outs do not quit their posts until relieved, and he is to be the responsible Officer until he leaves the bridge.

He was later photographed in the crow's nest too, as you can see three men in the crow's nest:

 

[Mike Spooner]

If Lightoller was in the crow nest was there room for three of them?

 

[Thomas Krom]

If Lightoller was in the crow nest was there room for three of them?

Based on the width, as well as the photograph, there was enough space for three people.

 

[Mike Spooner]

How long in time would Lightoller be in the crow nest.

 

[Thomas Krom]

How long in time would Lightoller be in the crow nest.

Until the ship cleared away from the Solent, in the Frank Berken picture two lookouts and Lights can still be seen.

 

[Mike Spooner]

I just wander the time Lightoller spent up in the crow nest, wouldn't that be the right time he could have handover the binoculars.
Or perhaps did he not have any binoculars in the first place,

 

[Mike Spooner]

Second officer Lightoller departure position was in the crow's next according to the White Star Line officers' handbook:

45.-Watches at Sea.

With a view to increased efficiency, five Officers are carried on all steamers of the Line, viz., Chief, 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th. The three seniors are the bridge Officers, and divide the time into three watches of two hours' duration, i.e., each will have two hours on the bridge in charge of the ship, followed by four hours below. The Chief Officer shall keep the first two hours of the middle watch, say from midnight until two a.m., to be followed by the 1st Officer, he being followed by the 2nd Officer, and so on in the same rotation for each 24 hours. The two Junior Officers will keep watch and watch with the seamen, four hours on and four hours off, one having charge of the port, and the other of the starboard watch, and to be under the direction of the bridge Officer for the time being. When all hands are at stations entering or leaving port, the Officers are to be stationed as under: Chief Officer ... On the forecastle head. 1st , ... Aft or on the after bridge. 2nd ... Look out crow's nest. 3rd … At con. standard compass. 4th ... On bridge with Commander, in charge of telegraph. The watches are to be equally divided, and the ship is never to be left without an Officer in charge of the deck, either at sea or in harbour; and no Officer is, on any occasion, to leave the deck until he is relieved. Officers are expected, when performing the duties of the ship, or when at their different stations, to preserve silence among the men, and to see that the orders from the bridge or deck are executed with promptitude, and without confusion or noise. At sea, when the Officer of the watch believes the ship to be running into danger, it is his duty to act, at once, upon his own responsibility; at the same time he is immediately to pass the word to call the Commander. The Chief, First, and Second Officers are never to give up charge of the bridge during their respective watches, unless with the express permission of the Commander. When the watch is relieved, the Officer in charge of the watch going off duty is to be responsible that the correct course is passed to the Quartermaster relieving. This should be done in the presence of the Officer relieving, who is to satisfy himself that it is being steered. When the watch is changed, it is to be understood that the Officer who is being relieved is to remain on the bridge and in charge during the change, that he is to see that the seamen placed as look-outs do not quit their posts until relieved, and he is to be the responsible Officer until he leaves the bridge.

He was later photographed in the crow's nest too, as you can see three men in the crow's nest:
View attachment 113247

Not very clear but I take you point there was room for three.

 

[brionboyles]

I just wander the time Lightoller spent up in the crow nest, wouldn't that be the right time he could have handover the binoculars.
Or perhaps did he not have any binoculars in the first place,

Binoculars were generally not a standard watch item for lookouts.

 

[Mike Spooner]

It aways had been for WSL lookout men. As Fred Fleet said in the inquiry could of made the different of missing the iceberg.

 

[Thomas Krom]

As Fred Fleet said in the inquiry could of made the different of missing the iceberg.

I wholeheartedly disagree, this post here goes into more detail.

Binoculars are used to observe an object AFTER it's been spotted by the naked eye first.

 

[Samuel Halpern]

With a view to increased efficiency, five Officers are carried on all steamers of the Line, viz., Chief, 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th.

That is incorrect information Thomas. Not all steamers. Titanic and other large passenger steamers of the WSL carried 7 officers:
Chief, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, and 6th. The first three were senior officer who had command of the bridge when on duty. They served 4 hours on with 8 hours off. (The C/O was on duty from 2 to 6 [am & pm], the 1/O was on from 6 to 10 [am & pm], and the 2/O was on 10 to 2 [am & pm]). The four junior officers served watch on watch with the deck crew, 4 hours on followed by 4 hours off, with two J/Os to each watch section (3rd and 5th in the "port" watch, and 4th and 6th in the "starboard" watch.

I recall reading on this site that, according to White Star Line regulations, the ship's second officer was supposed to be in the Crow's Nest when the ship was leaving a harbor (I assume also when arriving). Yet, according to On A Sea of Glass (p 75), "Chief Officer Wilde was at the head of the Forecastle, overseeing the crew working on the mooring lines. Second Officer Lightoller was a bit further aft on the Forecastle, working under Wilde's direction." Which is the correct location of where Lightoller was when the Titanic left Southampton?

As to the question asked, the answer is both. The 2/O started out on the forecastle attending to the mooring lines. After leaving the dock, he would go up the foremast into crow's nest for trip down channel waters until the pilot was dropped off.

 

[Thomas Krom]

That is incorrect information Thomas. Not all steamers. Titanic and other large passenger steamers of the WSL carried 7 officers:
Chief, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, and 6th. The first three were senior officer who had command of the bridge when on duty. They served 4 hours on with 8 hours off. (The C/O was on duty from 2 to 6 [am & pm], the 1/O was on from 6 to 10 [am & pm], and the 2/O was on 10 to 2 [am & pm]). The four junior officers served watch on watch with the deck crew, 4 hours on followed by 4 hours off, with two J/Os to each watch section (3rd and 5th in the "port" watch, and 4th and 6th in the "starboard" watch.

I know that Sam, I was just quoting what was in the officer's handbook from 1907. The point of it being posted was that it states the departure station of the second officer was in the crow's nest, which I highlighted.

Pictures taken in Southampton and the Solent confirm that there's a third man in the crow's nest together with the 2 lookouts, this third man very likely being Charles Hebert Lightoller.

 

[Gordon Mooneyhan]

As to the question asked, the answer is both. The 2/O started out on the forecastle attending to the mooring lines. After leaving the dock, he would go up the foremast into crow's nest for trip down channel waters until the pilot was dropped off.

Sam, thanks much for that clarification. I assume the process would be reversed when the ship would be arriving at a port.

 

[Mike Spooner]

I thought my post 10: As Fred Fleet said in the inquiry could of made the different of missing the iceberg. Would came under attack.
As in the US inquiry Mr Fleet said. Well, enough to get out of the way. I find a bit strange for a profession lookout would make such a claim if had glasses. Or may be just the case of frustration by Senator Smith questions.