A Deck

Hi everybody!

I want to know which lifeboats were loaded from A deck promenade? I knew that lifeboat 4 was. Was it the only lifeboat to be lowered from A deck promenade?
 
Jonathan,
Hello, how are you? Good I hope. As per the inquiry testimony, Lifeboat # 13 and # 15 were both partially loaded from A-deck as well. First Officer Murdoch helped load the boats from the boat deck, and Sixth Officer Moody helped load additional passengers from A-deck.

Hope this helps,
Tad
 
Hi Tad. If I recall, No. 15 was also loaded from B deck with many 3rd class passengers. I have been at home, so when I get back tomorrow I'll check my reference files to be sure. But in the area of boats 15 and 16, B deck had open space aft and would be easy to load passengers there.
 
I just confirmed what I posted yesterday. Boat 15 was loaded mostly from deck B. About five people got in on the boat deck, including trimmer George Cavell. The boat was then lowered to A deck where about 5 more got in according to Cavell, and then lowered one more deck to B deck where the majority of the people got in. Apparently, most of the people that were around on A deck got into boat 13 which was lowered down from the boat deck to A deck before No. 15 was. Only boat 15 on the starboard side could have taken people on from B deck which was open in the after part. Boat 15 was lowered to the water just minutes after No. 13 reached the water, and nearly came right on top of it as most of us know.
 
Hello Sam, Hello Bill,

My reading of Cavell's testimony is that it is contradictory to that of other crew [Rule and Hart] who were in Boat 15. - Perhaps not surprisingly they also contradict each other.

Regards and best wishes to you both for 2007,
Lester
 
Hi Lester. Yes, very contradictory when looking at all three accounts. However, Rule tends to support Cavell on two points. One was the number of people that got into the boat while it was on the boat deck. He said about 6 got in, and Cavell I believe said about 5. Secondly, Rule said that about 4 women and 3 children got in on A deck which agrees with Cavell's estimate of about 5 more got in from that deck. Rule then says that some crew was sent looking for more women & children, and when after 5 or 10 minutes couldn't find any others, Murdoch ordered the boat to filled up (with men hanging about) and lowered away. Rule thought that the boat was filled up with mostly men.

Hart's account was quite different. He said most everyone was loaded from the boat deck including his group of 25 passengers that he brought up and that is where he was ordered in from. He also said 5 women, 3 children and a man with a baby got in from A deck, and then the boat was lowered.

I have to question if either Rule or Hart were actually ordered into the boat at all. Murdoch certainly needed crew members to man the lifeboat, and Diamond and Cavell, who were part of the engine department crew, were apparently about the boat deck at the time, and Diamond was put in charge of the boat. Similarly, Barrett was put in charge of No. 13 when it left a little before 15.
 
Interesting points Sam. There is a degree of contradictory information about Lifeboat # 15 in particular. The number that boarded from the boat deck is just one example. Another is that some describe a completely orderly loading of this boat, with no women and children being left on A-deck, while at least one person testified about a "rush" on this boat, and a few passengers mention men trying to push into it, and someone jumping from the boat deck down into it as it was being loaded from what I assumed was A-deck, but quite possibly could have been B-deck as well, given the information you pointed out.

Some, including David Gleicher, have also questioned the accuracy or truthfulness of Steward Hart's account, and as you know, there are some things that don't seem to add up with parts of what he said, the number of passengers who he led into # 15 being one.

Happy New Year guys!
Tad
 
Another interesting tidbit regarding Lifeboat # 13. Seaman Robert Hopkins told New York's mayor that he was rescued in Lifeboat # 13. He states that it was partially loaded from the boat deck, and then lowered to A-deck where there was some disorder. He says that 25 people, amongst them stewards, crowded in at A-deck and were amongst the 65 saved.

Kind regards,
Tad
 
Hello Sam,

Thank you for that. I am still undecided about Cavell and B-deck, but would agree with Rule that there were a large number of men in the boat. - I also have doubts about Hart's testimony.

Regards,
Lester
 
Hello everybody, I have a feeling that steward Hart's estimation of those he led to the boat may have been a bit exaggerated. He might have had half a dozen people in his group, but the only person I have seen describing being escorted to deck in that manner is Alice Johnson and her family. Furthermore, I believe there may have been 27-28 crewembers (men and Mrs. Bliss), some 20 or 22 male passengers, perhaps eight or ten women and five children in this boat. Whether they entered the boat from Boat Deck, A Deck or B Deck is indeed difficult to say....

Peter
 
Jonathan and others,

The evidence that Lifeboat 15 (as well as Lifeboats 11 and 13) were loaded from Deck A is not as contradictory as one might think. It is important to understand the context of the loading of these boats. There is detailed testimony by Stewards Wheat (Brit. Inq. 13198-13206) and Mackay (Brit. Inq. 10740-10759) that First Officer Murdoch, who was in charge of the starboard-side boats, mobilized some seventy crewmen, primarily stewards, to assist in the loading of the three boats on Deck A.

That this was in fact the case was confirmed in detailed testimony by Fireman Barrett (2121-2133; 2256-2273) with respect to Lifeboat 13, and Steward Rule (Brit. Inq. 6487-6525) with respect to Lifeboat 15. The allusion to Rule saying some men were loaded from the Boat Deck must be seen in this context. Rule specifically testified that Murdoch told him to take around six men down with him in the boat to Deck A to help in its loading. When specifically asked whether Lifeboat 15 was lowered to a deck below Deck A before being launched Rule testified “No, she filled up from A Deck.”

Many of the stewards (and other crewmen) who helped in their loading naturally entered Lifeboats 13 and 15. This was confirmed by yet another detailed account of the loading of these boats, which is in agreement with the others, by the First Class passenger Dodge Washington, in a speech given in May, 1912.

Steward Hart (Brit. Inq. 9964-9991) does not give an account of the loading of Lifeboat 15 at all, but merely claims that he delivered some 25 women and children to the boat, and that both he and they entered the boat from the Boat Deck. He is alone as far as I know in making the claim that any such thing occurred, and in my view his testimony is reason to distrust his story rather than seriously challenging the fact that these boats were loaded from Deck A.

Cavell’s testimony, as suggested by Lester Mitcham, is more mysterious, but it is not at all credible, not least because it is uncorroborated and contradicts all the other accounts. Cavell (4292-4368) seems to testify that he was one of the crewman mentioned by Rule who were lowered from the Boat Deck to A Deck. But then he claims there were only five people loaded into the boat from A Deck, that there were no men at all on A Deck, and that sixty Third Class women and children were loaded from B Deck. Particularly the statement that he saw no men on A Deck flies in the face of all the other testimony, and there is no suggestion anywhere else that such a large number of women and children were loaded from B Deck into any boat.

It is not inconceivable that Cavell felt the need to deny that primarily men were loaded into Lifeboat 15 and concocted this story as a way out of being questioned about it. But of course that is pure conjecture.

For those interested in a fuller account of the loading and launching of the lifeboats in general, it is found in my recent book, Rescue of the Third Class on the Titanic (Research in Maritime History 31).

DG
 
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