Angle of Sinking

[LaBrava]

In the James Cameron film, the longitudinal axis of the Titanic appears to be at a 90. degree angle to the ocean surface. No doubt that James Cameron is taking artistic licence to make his film more dramatic.

As I recall, the eyewitness accounts of the lifeboat survivors state that the longitudinal axis of the Titanic was something like a 45. degree angle to the ocean surface. With five compartments flooded in the bow, a 45. degree angle seems excessive for a ship of Titanic's length and weight.

Have simulations of Titanic's sinking with scale models determined a maximum angle of sinking? Also, was it possible for Titanic's propellers to be above the ocean surface at the time of the sinking?

 

[Dan Johnson]

On one of the National Geographic specials, actually Cameron's "The Final Word" I believe, a Naval architect came to the conclusion that the max angle was 23 degrees. At that point the stresses reached their peak and the hull failed.

In a new animation it also showed the stern rolling to port as the bow detached. As the stern filled with water and the forward end filled, it rolled to port as the after end rose. The stern sank more on its side than upright and that roll made it appear as if the stern was vertical. (A picture is worth a 1000 words here).

 

[Stanley C Jenkins]

Lawrence Beesley, watching the sequence of events from Lifeboat 13, stated that the Titanic revolved slowly around her lateral axis "until she attained a vertically upright position; and there she remained - motionless!" She then "stood like a column" for about five minutes before sinking back a little and then finally sinking.

 

[Bags]

One of the best model sinkings I've seen is here; Model Titanic Sinks & Splits - YouTube I hope the link works. If not google "titanic model sinking 100th anniversary" and look for the Rapidnadion youtube. (was the second one down on my search)

For the most part it's all speculation, but it's easily one of the best videos of the event I've seen.

Regards,

Derek G.

 

[LaBrava]

Lawrence Beesley, watching the sequence of events from Lifeboat 13, stated that the Titanic revolved slowly around her lateral axis "until she attained a vertically upright position; and there she remained - motionless!" She then "stood like a column" for about five minutes before sinking back a little and then finally sinking.

Stanley, was there at least one other eyewitness account from another lifeboat survivor confirming Beesley's statement that the stern of Titanic went perpendicular?

 

[arklissa27]

Stanley, was there at least one other eyewitness account from another lifeboat survivor confirming Beesley's statement that the stern of Titanic went perpendicular?

I read on a website the other night that the tail does not grow out in its entirety
the water until the end, just like on "Titanic" and "A Night to portray
Think about it. "Some people believe that the center of the angle of the ship"
Decrease was dead center on the ship. But according to this web site, it
was not there. Even if the bow was beginning to set, the star seemed almost stationary
until the very end, when so many compartments flooded forward, that it rose
high in the air. I'm not sure how that worked. Nearly all the witnesses claimed
Stern rose out of the water when the bridge was dipping below (about 02.15 clock).
Thus, a forward movement was on the ship that a wave generated washed
Some people freely across the funnel falls,Family History which in turn causes a larger wave
to rinse away the collapsible lifeboat.

 

[Jake Peterson]

Didn't Chief Baker Charles Joughlin mention walking up the side of the ship, holding on to the rail, then riding the stern down like an elevator?

 

[Bags]

Seems to me you're right Jake..... BOT Inquiry, p#142;

6072. Were you holding the rail so that you were inside the ship, or were you holding the rail so that you were on the outside of the ship? - On the outside.
6073. So that the rail was between you and the deck? - Yes.
6074. Then what happened? - Well, I was just wondering what next to do. I had tightened my belt and I had transferred some things out of this pocket into my stern pocket. I was just wondering what next to do when she went.
6075. And did you find yourself in the water? - Yes.
6076. Did you feel that you were dragged under or did you keep on the top of the water? - I do not believe my head went under the water at all. It may have been wetted, but no more

Though sadly that doesn't speak to the angle, more the final rate of sinking.

Regards,

Derek G.

 

[Jake Peterson]

I want to say that he walked up the starboard side of the ship, but I'm not sure of that. I'd better go check...

 

[LaBrava]

I find it puzzling that no one has been able to find an eyewitness account to confirm Lawrence Beesley's statement that the stern went perpendicular.

I believe that Lawrence Beesley, the eyewitness, is the same as Lawrence Beesley, the author of The Loss of the SS Titanic, published just 9 weeks after the sinking of the Titanic. For Beesley's version of the sinking of the Titanic, see Loss Of The SS Titanic By Lawrence Beesley

If what Lawrence Beesley saw is true, then why aren't there other eyewitness accounts from survivors from Lifeboat 13 stating that the stern of Titanic went perpendicular?

 

[indy125]

I'm curious whether anybody has tried modelling what the spectators in different lifeboats might have witnessed based on their position relative to the ship? Obviously it could never be exact, but a simulation that modelled what we think we know about Titanic's sinking and then allowed you to put yourself at the same viewpoint as those who witnessed the event might help explain some of the differences between what people claim to have seen (ship breaking up or not, angle of sinking) and what the facts suggest actually happened.

It's fascinating how accounts of the same event can vary so much. Sitting here it's easy to think that whether a ship broke in two or not would be fairly obvious, but when you're bobbing in a lifeboat in the middle of the Atlantic at night, possibly in a state of shock and watching loved ones die, I guess things are not so black and white.

 

[Jude]

Stanley, was there at least one other eyewitness account from another lifeboat survivor confirming Beesley's statement that the stern of Titanic went perpendicular?

Hi La Brava,

I’ve found at least two other eyewitness accounts:

“In a couple of hours she began to go down more rapidly… Suddenly, the ship seemed to shoot up out of the water and stand there perpendicularly. It seemed to us that it stood upright in the water for four full minutes.” (Mrs D.H.Bishop in lifeboat 7 from New York Times April 19th 1912.)


“The fore part and up to the second funnel, was by this time completely submerged; and as we watched this terribly awe-inspiring sight, suddenly all lights went out and the huge bulk was left in black darkness, but clearly silhouetted against the bright sky. Then the next moment the massive boilers left their beds and went thundering down with a hollow rumbling roar through the bulkheads, carrying everything with them that stood in their way. This unparalled tragedy that was being enacted before our very eyes now rapidly approached its finale as the huge ship slowly but surely reared herself on end and brought rudder and propellers clear of the water, till at last she assumed an absolute perpendicular position. In this amazing attitude she remained for the space of half a minute. Then with impressive majesty and ever-increasing momentum she silently took her last tragic dive to seek a final resting place in the depths of the cold grey Atlantic.” (Second Officer Lightoller in Titanic and other ships, describing what he saw from the bottom of Collapsible B)

“The peculiar way in which the Titanic is described as hesitating and assuming a vertical position before her final dive…can be accounted for only on this hypothesis of the sliding of the boilers from their beds.” (Archibald Gracie —The Truth about the Titanic)

 

[Michael H. Standart]

Interested parties may wish to view More Questions Than Answers, Part 2

Parks Stephenson attempted to model the sinking as it would have been percieved by a number of known witnesses to explain why...among other things....some may have thought the ship went down in one piece. Frame 9 in particular is pretty interesting.

 

[LaBrava]

Hi La Brava,

I’ve found at least two other eyewitness accounts:

“In a couple of hours she began to go down more rapidly… Suddenly, the ship seemed to shoot up out of the water and stand there perpendicularly. It seemed to us that it stood upright in the water for four full minutes.” (Mrs D.H.Bishop in lifeboat 7 from New York Times April 19th 1912.)


“The fore part and up to the second funnel, was by this time completely submerged; and as we watched this terribly awe-inspiring sight, suddenly all lights went out and the huge bulk was left in black darkness, but clearly silhouetted against the bright sky. Then the next moment the massive boilers left their beds and went thundering down with a hollow rumbling roar through the bulkheads, carrying everything with them that stood in their way. This unparalled tragedy that was being enacted before our very eyes now rapidly approached its finale as the huge ship slowly but surely reared herself on end and brought rudder and propellers clear of the water, till at last she assumed an absolute perpendicular position. In this amazing attitude she remained for the space of half a minute. Then with impressive majesty and ever-increasing momentum she silently took her last tragic dive to seek a final resting place in the depths of the cold grey Atlantic.” (Second Officer Lightoller in Titanic and other ships, describing what he saw from the bottom of Collapsible B)

“The peculiar way in which the Titanic is described as hesitating and assuming a vertical position before her final dive…can be accounted for only on this hypothesis of the sliding of the boilers from their beds.” (Archibald Gracie —The Truth about the Titanic)

Jude, good work.

Now, I'm puzzled why other Titanic authors claiming a high angle sinking (something like 31. to 59. degrees) would ignore the eyewitness account in Lawrence Beesley's book plus Second Officer Lightoller's eyewitness account plus Mrs. D.H. Bishop's eyewitness account from Lifeboat 7.

 

[LaBrava]

I'm curious whether anybody has tried modelling what the spectators in different lifeboats might have witnessed based on their position relative to the ship? Obviously it could never be exact, but a simulation that modelled what we think we know about Titanic's sinking and then allowed you to put yourself at the same viewpoint as those who witnessed the event might help explain some of the differences between what people claim to have seen (ship breaking up or not, angle of sinking) and what the facts suggest actually happened.

It's fascinating how accounts of the same event can vary so much. Sitting here it's easy to think that whether a ship broke in two or not would be fairly obvious, but when you're bobbing in a lifeboat in the middle of the Atlantic at night, possibly in a state of shock and watching loved ones die, I guess things are not so black and white.

indy125, I'm not bothered by the discrepancy in the number of pieces.

I think that Titanic broke into two pieces below the ocean surface but near the ocean surface. This hypothesis would account for what Lawrence Beesley saw - a one piece Titanic sinking. Mr. Beesley can only see what is happening above the ocean surface and he assumed that the front half of Titanic was still attached when he witnessed the perpendicular stern sinking. After all, this is the middle of the night and all of the lights on Titanic went out after the stern went perpendicular.