Question At what time were collapsibles A and B pushed onto the deck?

[João Gomes]

I read in some places that at 2:15 they were washed out, but I would like to know what time they were pushed from the officers' roof.

 

[Arun Vajpey]

Considering the circumstances at and after about 02:10am, it would be quite difficult to know the precise time that Collapsibles B and A reached the boat deck. A significant factor was the substantial port list at the time, which meant that the physical tasks and effort required to get those boats on to the boat deck were very different on the two sides.

A clue might be to look at the times when the previous lifeboats on each side were launched. On the starboard side, Collapsible C started to lower under Murdoch's supervision just before 2am and by then the chances are that some crewmen were already unfastening Collapsible A, which was lashed on top of the Captain's Quarters. Once freed, the lifeboat had to be moved uphill against the port list to the edge of the Captain's Quarters. Moody had reportedly requested some block and tackle equipment to facilitate this task and Hemming fetched it; it is uncertain if it was used at all. Steward Edward Brown, who helped with and was one of the survivors on Collapsible A, said that they rigged up a couple of canvas spars to support the lifeboat when it had to be pushed over on to the boat deck.

On the port side, Lightoller and Wilde lowered Collapsible D at 02:05am and then the former got on to the roof of the Officers' Quarters to lead unlashing of Collapsible B. Although they started this work a bit later than Murdoch's team on the starboard side, it was easier for Lightoller's men because here the port list was helping them - in theory at least. Lightoller later said that from his vantage point he could see the struggles that Murdoch's group were having on the starboard side.

Reconstructions vary in the time and manner in which the two lifeboats were pushed down from the roof; I think we can only speculate that it must have been sometime between 02:10am and 02:12am. Collapsible B very likely was pushed over first, but because of the port list it fell rather than slid and ended-up upside down on the partially flooded boat deck of the lower port side. Harold Bride had just arrived on the scene and claimed to have been momentarily trapped under the capsized lifeboat. Collapsible A followed on the higher starboard side but despite the spars used as support, the boat was damaged in the fall when it landed on the still dry boat deck; though it remained upright, the collapsed canvas sides appeared to have partly jammed and could not be raised properly.

 

[Richard C Elliott]

Moody had reportedly requested some block and tackle equipment to facilitate this task and Hemming fetched it; it is uncertain if it was used at all. Steward Edward Brown, who helped with and was one of the survivors on Collapsible A, said that they rigged up a couple of canvas spars to support the lifeboat when it had to be pushed over on to the boat deck.

Moody may have been the only person who really knew how it was supposed to be done. According to Titanic - the Ship Magnificent some of the forward funnel guywires had eyes fitted in them for the specific purpose of attaching tackle to lift the boats off the roof of the officers quarters and swing them out to the deck. Sliding them down makeshift ramps was definitely not the intended method, though this seems to be what was done on both sides.

 

[Arun Vajpey]

Sliding them down makeshift ramps was definitely not the intended method, though this seems to be what was done on both sides.

In OASOG and some other works, there is mention that Moody did ask for that block and pulley kit, but by the time Hemming or someone esle got it, continued rapid flooding and increasing downward trim at the bow appears to have made him change his mind. There are several references that after Collapsible A and landed on the boat deck, Moody suggested letting it float free but he was either overruled or Murdoch and others were too busy trying to control the lifeboat and perhaps fit it onto the davits which had been cranked back. In any case, it did float free when the wave hit a few minutes later.

On the port side, the work with Collapsible B was different because of the increasing port list. Sliding it down was therefore not an option, although they might have tired a similar maneuver using canvas spars. When Lightoller's group pushed it from the roof of the officers' quarters, it fell upside down onto the partially flooded boat deck and so had to be used as a raft.

 

[Richard C Elliott]

In OASOG and some other works, there is mention that Moody did ask for that block and pulley kit, but by the time Hemming or someone esle got it, continued rapid flooding and increasing downward trim at the bow appears to have made him change his mind.

Just for a change, Arun, I'm inclined to agree with you.

Looking again at the plans, hoisting those collapsibles in the normal way under marked forward trim would have swung them several feet forward, and there are a couple of ventilator cowls and some railings not far forward of the boats. It might well have been impossible.

I still think, though, that Moody may have been a bit more au fait with the correct procedure. One might expect that when an order was given to prepare the boats it should have been somebody's job to bring the necessary tackle to those two collapsibles, much earlier in the sequence, but nobody appears to have done so until Moody ordered it. It seems like another example of the general unfamiliarity of the officers and crew with the boat procedures.

 

[Bob Read]

@Richard C Elliott Here’s an article abut launching these boats: https://www.encyclopedia-titanica.org/community/attachments/collapsible-boat-article-2-pdf.116837/

 

[Richard C Elliott]

Thank you @Bob Read for that detailed analysis. Clearly there was little likelihood of launching these boats easily even by the intended procedure.

 

[Arun Vajpey]

One might expect that when an order was given to prepare the boats it should have been somebody's job to bring the necessary tackle to those two collapsibles, much earlier in the sequence, but nobody appears to have done so until Moody ordered it. It seems like another example of the general unfamiliarity of the officers and crew with the boat procedures.

True, but I think they might have thought that they would have got to Collapsibles A and B a bit sooner than they actually did. By the time the order to launch the lifeboats was given, the rate of downward trim of the bow was already slowing and did so for most of the second hour after the impact. Although all the officers knew that the Titanic was sinking, the chances are that they didn't know the timeframes. The one exception was Boxhall, who found out about Andrews' estimate because he asked Captain Smith directly. But Boxhall was also the only officer not involved with launching any lifeboat.

 

[Luca Gelmetti]

I think, if I'm not mistaken, I read in an article by Samuel Halpern (correct me if I'm wrong) that it would have taken Lightoller between 7 and 8 minutes to push the collapsible "B" onto the deck after lowering the "D" at 2:05, which would not have taken long to lower due to the increasing list, which at that time was approximately 15º, given that lowering the "C" was more difficult. That said, this would safely say that both collapsibles would be pushed onto the deck between 2:10 and 2:15, more at 2:12, with, as Arun said, collapsible "B" being the first to land.

 

[marina_irc]

True, but I think they might have thought that they would have got to Collapsibles A and B a bit sooner than they actually did. By the time the order to launch the lifeboats was given, the rate of downward trim of the bow was already slowing and did so for most of the second hour after the impact. Although all the officers knew that the Titanic was sinking, the chances are that they didn't know the timeframes. The one exception was Boxhall, who found out about Andrews' estimate because he asked Captain Smith directly. But Boxhall was also the only officer not involved with launching any lifeboat.

I wonder if lowering the collapsibles off the deckhouse sooner might have interfered with lowering operations for the boats already on the davits and collapsibles C and D. It was a relatively crowded deck space.

 

[Arun Vajpey]

I wonder if lowering the collapsibles off the deckhouse sooner might have interfered with lowering operations for the boats already on the davits and collapsibles C and D. It was a relatively crowded deck space.

Looking at some of the sketches that @Samuel Halpern and others have posted about the lifeboat lowering procedure, I think there would have been no room for the crew to work if Collapsibles A & B had been lowered to the boat deck level while Lifeboat #1/#2 and Collapsibles C/D were still in place. Also, we have to remember that people - passengers and some crew - would have been crowding around lifeboats as they were loaded and then lowered.

 

[Luca Gelmetti]

In fact, during the preparation of the collapsible "C" there were quite a few passengers crowded together, so many that even William Murdoch had to use his revolver and shoot into the air to calm some men who were trying to force their way into the boat. The same thing happened in the "D", something that Lightoller later confessed.

 

[Samuel Halpern]

I think the basic problem had to do with having enough trained people to work on freeing up A and B while at the same time, work on launching C and D. Time was running out.