"Fifteen first-class bellboys"?

[Brad Walton]

Walter Lord refers to "fifteen first-class bellboys" smoking on the boat deck of the sinking Titanic. But I have found no reference to bellboys in Gunter Babler's book "Guide to the Crew of the Titanic." Have I over-looked a reference? I know that ocean liners of the period employed bell-boys. I recently saw a photograph of a small army of them on the Mauretania (? or Lusitania?) distributing newspapers in what looked like a smoking room or verandah cafe. I know about the four elevator boys on the Titanic, but I have not seen references to bell boys anywhere except Walter Lord. Thanks.

 

[Seumas]

Lord got that one wrong.

There were only three first class bellboys - Arthur Barratt, Clifford Harris and William Watson. All three unfortunately were lost.

I've been a bit critical, maybe overly so, of Walter Lord at times in past, but I will go easy on him here.

When he was writing ANTR he was rather restricted in terms of the information available to him. He just had the American enquiry transcripts, interviews (often via correspondence) with survivors and old newspaper accounts. As a consequence, some dud information unfortunately worked its way in.

 

[Brad Walton]

Lord got that one wrong.

There were only three first class bellboys - Arthur Barratt, Clifford Harris and William Watson. All three unfortunately were lost.

I've been a bit critical, maybe overly so, of Walter Lord at times in past, but I will go easy on him here.

When he was writing ANTR he was rather restricted in terms of the information available to him. He just had the American enquiry transcripts, interviews (often via correspondence) with survivors and old newspaper accounts. As a consequence, some dud information unfortunately worked its way in.

Thanks very much for that, Seumas, I missed the bell-boys when I searched Babler's book. Now I see he has them listed (p. 84) working under the "clerks" in the Purser's Office.

 

[Michael Hinz]

I’m not absolutely sure, but it is possible that this passage refers to an interview with Quartermaster Humphreys, who claimed to have seen the “youngest members of the crew” during the evacuation.

50 TITANIC BELLBOYS DIED SMOKING AS WOMEN FILLED BOATS

www.encyclopedia-titanica.org

In this article Humphreys speaks of fifty bellboys. Probably other young crew members like liftboys, stewards or scullions were present.

 

[Seumas]

I’m not absolutely sure, but it is possible that this passage refers to an interview with Quartermaster Humphreys, who claimed to have seen the “youngest members of the crew” during the evacuation.

50 TITANIC BELLBOYS DIED SMOKING AS WOMEN FILLED BOATS

www.encyclopedia-titanica.org

In this article Humphreys speaks of fifty bellboys. Probably other young crew members like liftboys, stewards or scullions were present.

More likely Humphrey's, like quite a few other survivors, exaggerated for effect. There are sometimes instances where have to be careful not to take testimony too literally and use our common sense instead.

 

[Brad Walton]

Thanks very much for that, Seumas, I missed the bell-boys when I searched Babler's book. Now I see he has them listed (p. 84) working under the "clerks" in the Purser's Office.

I’m not absolutely sure, but it is possible that this passage refers to an interview with Quartermaster Humphreys, who claimed to have seen the “youngest members of the crew” during the evacuation.

50 TITANIC BELLBOYS DIED SMOKING AS WOMEN FILLED BOATS

www.encyclopedia-titanica.org

In this article Humphreys speaks of fifty bellboys. Probably other young crew members like liftboys, stewards or scullions were present.

Thanks, Michael, that sounds plausible to me. It would have been natural for the younger (teenaged) members of the crew, whether bell-boys, elevator-boys, scullions, whatever, to gravitate to each other when many or all of them had been released from duty and had drifted to a common spot, whether that was the boat deck or somewhere else. It would also explain the inflation of the number of "bell-boys" from three to fifteen (or fifty, which sounds like an exaggeration). I would guess that the bell-boy uniforms would not have been very dissimilar to the elevator-boy uniforms. In Lord's book, Humphrey's recollection is placed during the last twenty minutes before the ship foundered. It is a little surreal thinking of those boys enjoying a smoke together at such a critical moment.

 

[Arun Vajpey]

It would have been natural for the younger (teenaged) members of the crew, whether bell-boys, elevator-boys, scullions, whatever, to gravitate to each other when many or all of them had been released from duty and had drifted to a common spot, whether that was the boat deck or somewhere else. It would also explain the inflation of the number of "bell-boys" from three to fifteen (or fifty, which sounds like an exaggeration). I would guess that the bell-boy uniforms would not have been very dissimilar to the elevator-boy uniforms.

Excellent analysis. I fully agree that those "fifteen or so" youngsters seen smoking towards the end comprised of a combination of bellboys, junior stewards and similar crew from the victualling department. The passenger(s) who reported the incident later probably recognized one or two bellboys in the crowd and so referred to them collectively by that title, assuming that the rest were the same.

It is a little surreal thinking of those boys enjoying a smoke together at such a critical moment.

I agree. I think the young men were smoking just to control their natural anxiety about their dwindling chances of survival as lifeboats left he Titanic one after another. Like many passengers and some of their crew colleagues, they might still have hoped that a rescue ship would arrive in time to save them and so there was no outright panic. Although all concerned knew by then that the Titanic was sinking, the relatively slow rate up until then might have given them false hopes of rescue. It was not until almost 02:15 am that the Titanic suddenly lost its longitudinal stability and gave that sudden forward and downwrad lurch at the bow, thus starting the final plunge.

 

[RileyGardner17]

Perhaps I am misremembering, but didn't Frankie Goldsmith mention seeing the bellboys (or young members of the crew) playing games on the promenade as Collapsible C was being lowered? Or is that someone else?

I've often wondered if the younger members of the crew would often just be remembered as "bellboys" collectively despite their various job titles. I am stretching my logic here, but it seems plausible younger boys on the crew gravitated towards one another and stuck together during the sinking, and collectively were remembered as being "bellboys" by those who saw them.

 

[Seumas]

I find it a bit hard to believe that there were people larking about as Collapsible C was lowered.

By this point it was obvious the ship did not have long left and panic was beginning to build up. That's why Murdoch had no choice but to be firm when loading this boat or else it would have been overrun.

Goldsmith (or whoever it was) may have noticed some of the crew preparing to get Collapsible A down from the officers quarters as the order was given to lower away C. This may have looked a bit peculiar to a young boy.

 

[Arun Vajpey]

I find it a bit hard to believe that there were people larking about as Collapsible C was lowered.

I agree.

Goldsmith (or whoever it was) may have noticed some of the crew preparing to get Collapsible A down from the officers quarters as the order was given to lower away C. This may have looked a bit peculiar to a young boy

The crew youngsters might have been trying to reassure each other with nervous laughs but to a 9 year old boy it might have seemed like they were having fun. He was rescued on Collapsible C, which would have been crowded and noisy with all those Lebanese women and a kid could easily have become confused.

The attempt to lower Collapsible A from the roof of the Captain's Quarters started while Collapsible C was in its final stages of loading and this might have seemed like a "game" to young Frankie from his position in the latter boat. Steward Edward Brown said that they got two planks or canvas spars at the bow end of Collapsible A to try and slide it down to the boat deck. It did not work very well and the boat fell with a crash onto the still dry starboard deck, causing damage that might have prevented them from pulling up the canvas sides effectively. Some of the "bellboys" in the vicinity might have been ordered to help and their actions might have looked odd to the boy as Collapsible C was lowered.

 

[Brad Walton]

I find it a bit hard to believe that there were people larking about as Collapsible C was lowered.

By this point it was obvious the ship did not have long left and panic was beginning to build up. That's why Murdoch had no choice but to be firm when loading this boat or else it would have been overrun.

Goldsmith (or whoever it was) may have noticed some of the crew preparing to get Collapsible A down from the officers quarters as the order was given to lower away C. This may have looked a bit peculiar to a young boy.

Lord mentions that after the last lifeboat was lowered at 2:05 a "curious calm" came over the Titanic.

 

[Seumas]

Lord mentions that after the last lifeboat was lowered at 2:05 a "curious calm" came over the Titanic.

A lot of Lord's work is now out of date and doesn't stack up.

The fact that Murdoch had to form a human chain of crewmen to stop a rush on Collapsible C and also had to fire a shot or two in the air to keep order strongly suggests otherwise.

A number of passengers who escaped on Collapsible C claim there was considerable tension and some panic in the air when it was loaded and lowered.

Forgive me, I do mean this constructively but you seem to be using Walter Lord as your main source. ANTR and TNLO are both written in a charming style and are still good as basic primers, but nonetheless they contain a considerable number of inaccuracies. "On A Sea of Glass" is now by far our best guide (peer reviewed) to events and slap bang up-to-date.

 

[Brad Walton]

A lot of Lord's work is now out of date and doesn't stack up.

The fact that Murdoch had to form a human chain of crewmen to stop a rush on Collapsible C and also had to fire a shot or two in the air to keep order strongly suggests otherwise.

A number of passengers who escaped on Collapsible C claim there was considerable tension and some panic in the air when it was loaded and lowered.

Forgive me, I do mean this constructively but you seem to be using Walter Lord as your main source. ANTR and TNLO are both written in a charming style and are still good as basic primers, but nonetheless they contain a considerable number of inaccuracies. "On A Sea of Glass" is now by far our best guide (peer reviewed) to events and slap bang up-to-date.

Seumas, I appreciate your taking the time and trouble to reply. I have read a number of sources other than Lord, but not all of them refute his every assertion. It is not enough to dismiss an assertion just because Lord made it. One needs to offer counter evidence. But this is what you did in this case, and I greatly appreciate it. But kindly don't lash out at me just because I quote Lord. Just offer the counter evidence, as you did here. I have a doctorate in history. I know how the game is played.

 

[Seumas]

Seumas, I appreciate your taking the time and trouble to reply. I have read a number of sources other than Lord, but not all of them refute his every assertion. It is not enough to dismiss an assertion just because Lord made it. One needs to offer counter evidence. But this is what you did in this case, and I greatly appreciate it. But kindly don't lash out at me just because I quote Lord. Just offer the counter evidence, as you did here. I have a doctorate in history. I know how the game is played.

I did not lash out you, I'm sorry if you felt that way but we all of us have to correct one another from time to time. Arun Vajpey, Sam Halpern, Thomas Krom and Dan Parkes have corrected mistakes I've made in recent months but I did not feel sore at them for it.

I'm just saying that it would be better to use more up-to-date, peer reviewed and accurate sources such as "On A Sea of Glass" (by Wormstedt, Kent Layton and Fitch), "Report Into the Loss ..." (by Sam Halpern & many others) and "On Board RMS Titanic: Memories of a Maiden Voyage" (by George Behe), a trio of books which many of us agree are indispensable.

 

[Brad Walton]

I did not lash out you, I'm sorry if you felt that way but we all of us have to correct one another from time to time. Arun Vajpey, Sam Halpern, Thomas Krom and Dan Parkes have corrected mistakes I've made in recent months but I did not feel sore at them for it.

I'm just saying that it would be better to use more up-to-date, peer reviewed and accurate sources such as "On A Sea of Glass" (by Wormstedt, Kent Layton and Fitch), "Report Into the Loss ..." (by Sam Halpern & many others) and "On Board RMJ

Please be assured that I am not "using Walter Lord as [my] main source" for anything. I have read other books about the Titanic, including "On a Sea of Glass. I was not attempting to argue or assert anything on Lord's authority. With regard to the 15 bellboys, I brought this subject up because I in fact suspected that Lord was mistaken on this point. I mentioned the "curious calm" not because I believed it, but merely as consistent with the suggestion, percolating through the remarks, that people were "larking around" following the launch of the last lifeboat. As I stated with regard to the junior members of the crew, I was skeptical that this was the case.