Lifeboats, Launch Times, List and Trim Parts 1 & 2

It will take a while to read and digest everything in the above article, especially as there is a Part 2 coming as well.

But after a quick look, I noticed this comment.
This is yet another first-hand account that agrees with what Ella White, Margaret Swift, Alice Leader, and Emma Bucknell had to say.

But that also disagrees with equally "First Hand" comments by Martha Stone, Major Peuchen, Fahim Al-Zainni, Julia Cavendish and Mary Smith. How is one group necessarily more reliable than the other? If anything, there is the fact that Margaret Swift and Alice Leader shared a starboard cabin - D17 - which raises the question of which side of the boat deck they first arrived and hence which was really the 'first boat' that they saw. Since both those women were rescued on Lifeboat #8, a port side boat, they could have crossed over.

Martha Stone, who was rescued on Lifeboat #6, made a very simple statement which IMO is quite relevant and not easy to dismiss. She said that just before she boarded her lifeboat, she leaned over the railing and saw another partially filled lifeboat already in the water; it could not have been any other but Lifeboat #8.

I have read the testimonies of Hichens and Fleet on both sides of the Atlantic and Fleet did not come across as any more reliable than Hichens and so one cannot comment which of the two was more "confused" or "mistaken".

Other than the witness accounts already mentioned, another major stumbling block for me in the theory that Lifeboat #6 was launched at 12:55am and before Lifeboat #8 is the Peuchen angle. If Lifeboat #6 was really the first lifeboat lowered on the port side, it meant that Lightoller was already short of seamen before he had lowered any boat, which seems highly improbable. Major Peuchen was allowed into Lifeboat #6 precisely to cover that shortage. We cannot use the excuse that Lightoller sent some seamen with Nichols on the latter's gangway door expedition here to 'explain' that shortage; the 2/O did not do so. He testified that he ordered the Boatswain to take an unspecified number of men (ie choose the men himself) and go down to the gangway door, and when the boatswain said "Aye, aye Sir" and left, assumed that the latter was carrying out the order. Nichols could have chosen his men from anywhere, including the starboard side where he had helped with the lifeboats earlier. In fact, considering that Nichols had worked with Murdoch et al on the starboard side till a few minutes before arriving on the port side, the boatswain was likely more familiar with the way the crewmen were distributed on the starboard side much better and could well have picked his helpers from there.

Also Sam, IMO the title and some statements of the chapter "Some Fallacious Arguments" are harsh. The one thing that I have noticed since W-F-B published their very first version of the Lifeboat Launching Sequence is to mention both sides of the argument, which included consideration of survivor accounts that did not tally with their conclusions. I did not find their approach to evidence "selective" at any stage; quite the contrary, as a matter of fact.
 
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When can we expect Part II to come out?
Before being posted on ET, an article needs to be formatted for web presentation. Then the author needs to check it over, which includes making sure that the footnote links work properly, and then give the final OK. I am hopeful that part-II will be ready to be posted up in a few days from now.
 
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Before being posted on ET, an article needs to be formatted for web presentation. Then the author needs to check it over, which includes making sure that the footnote links work properly, and then give the final OK. I am hopeful that part-II will be ready to be posted up in a few days from now.
That's okay, I just wanted to know. Thanks for that.
 
If anything, there is the fact that Margaret Swift and Alice Leader shared a starboard cabin - D17 - which raises the question of which side of the boat deck they first arrived and hence which was really the 'first boat' that they saw. Since both those women were rescued on Lifeboat #8, a port side boat, they could have crossed over.
"I thought it would be just as safe to remain on board, but on a second thought we went over to the port side - our room was starboard, about amidships, and there were some women there getting ready to leave the ship." Mrs. Swift in The Brooklyn Daily Eagle, New York, 19 April 1912.

No mention in this or other newspapers about crossing over from Starboard to Port.

Martha Stone, who was rescued on Lifeboat #6, made a very simple statement which IMO is quite relevant and not easy to dismiss. She said that just before she boarded her lifeboat, she leaned over the railing and saw another partially filled lifeboat already in the water;

That is not what she said. This is what was originally printed in The New York Tribune, 20 April 1912.
2023-03-18 at 18-46-24.png

Strange, same newspaper same account used by others, no mention of a partially filled boat, no mention she leaned over the railing (which railing by the way?).
Sounds to be boat No. 4 which was the first "lowered" but only to A Deck.

comments by Martha Stone, Major Peuchen, Fahim Al-Zainni, Julia Cavendish and Mary Smith.

As Sam has Peuchen himself stated in his newspaper account that he left in the 1st lifeboat.
Mrs. Smith gave also newspaper interviews which were printed on April 19 (Evening Post New York) and April 20 (New York Tribune) for example. Both of them did NOT have what she claimed one month later on 20 May 1912 in her Affidavit, that she refuse to board the first lifeboat.

Zainni, where did he mentioned No. 8 before No. 6?


Nichols and co. People should read the testimony carefully.
 
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You absolutely can't get away from Fleet's, Woolner's and White's direct inquiry testimony that No. 6 was first and No. 8 was second to be launched. Neither can the press accounts be dismissed of Leader, Swift, Young, White, Bucknell, and Bonnell, yet they are ignored elsewhere or barely mentioned. Thanks to Samuel and Ioannis, those accounts are given the consideration they are due. Research is a continuing arc, new documentation comes to light over time and responsible historians take avail of all available material. They do not pick and choose which facts are worthy of inclusion in a study but include all.
 
Sounds to be boat No. 4 which was the first "lowered" but only to A Deck.
No it does not. Mrs Stone refers that the "first boat" when she looked down to the water and then refers to men standing around the deck in the next sentence.

People should read the testimony carefully.
People have. But then if one chooses to form a conclusion first and works towards "providing evidence" afterwards while accusing others of doing that, nothing more can be said or done.
 
No it does not. Mrs Stone refers that the "first boat" when she looked down to the water and then refers to men standing around the deck in the next sentence.

And the first boat "lowered" was No. 4.
You are just changing things how you like to have it.

People have. But then if one chooses to form a conclusion first and works towards "providing evidence" afterwards while accusing others of doing that, nothing more can be said or done.
That is possibly how you do research but not how Sam or I did.
 
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Hi Sam,

I very much enjoyed reading Part 1 in full this morning. Excellent!

Not sure that I would draw any firm conclusions of the Lightoller/Straus bit in the paragraphs which contain footnotes 40 and 41.

I particularly liked footnotes 11, 47, 60, and 65. Footnote 60 I regard as very important.

Cheers,
Julian
 
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