Steven Christian
Member
Other ships that struck bergs
- Thread starter Steven Christian
- Start date
I think I've seen that one or something similar. A very detailed list, although it would be better if it was in chronological order, rather than alphabetical. But there's always Crtl F on one's keyboard.
Interestingly, my great grandfather was aboard the Arizona in 1893, 14 years after the collision with an iceberg.
Interestingly, my great grandfather was aboard the Arizona in 1893, 14 years after the collision with an iceberg.
Mike Spooner
Member
Didn't a French liner SS Niagara hit a iceberg on 11th April and survive to New York.
Arun Vajpey
Member
It did, and according to ET it was on 10th April 1912 - the day Titanic steamed out of Southampton. They sent out an SOS message before continuing and so had a wireless facility. It was 'at night' and very close to where the Titanic itself collided with the iceberg 4 days later. So, allowing for time difference, the Titanic was probably around the middle of its journey from Cherbourg to Queenstown at the time.
Is there a record of the messages sent by the Niagara after the accident and before reaching New York? If so, it would be interesting to know if Phillips or Bride on board the Titanic could have received it from other ships and passed it on. So little in known about the early messages sent or received by the Titanic.
Mike Spooner
Member
It would seem due to fog where the Niagara had reduce her speed was the saver for the ship when she hit the iceberg.
Mike Spooner
Member
Looking back at ET 2004 they mention the 11th April was the date of iceberg hit. No mention of haze but fog. Could that be what Titanic faced?
Arun Vajpey
Member
On the night that the Titanic struck the iceberg, the sea was flat calm - the so-called "sea of glass". The atmosphere was crystal clear with no haze and certainly no fog.
But it was moonless and very dark, which, combined with the flat calm sea conditions created an illusion of visibility that they thought was better than it actually was. As Sam explained, all those 11 captains testifying under oath believed that they could have seen ice with enough time but they were wrong.
But it was moonless and very dark, which, combined with the flat calm sea conditions created an illusion of visibility that they thought was better than it actually was. As Sam explained, all those 11 captains testifying under oath believed that they could have seen ice with enough time but they were wrong.
Mike Spooner
Member
The subject of a visibility for Titanic has been well discussed over the years and we do know the two crow nest lookout men have two different version of the haze ahead. One said it was nothing to worry about as the other said we be lucky enough to see though it. But at the end of day something was out there restricting their version. Seeing the comment made by Niagara ship it was fog, can we be sure it wasn't a dash of fog?
Arun Vajpey
Member
The Niagara was in the area 4 full days ahead of the Titanic and so the atmospheric conditions would have changed. AFAIK, no one on board the Titanic, Californian or Mount Temple reported fog on the night of April 14-15th 1912. But there was something restricting vision of the Titanic's lookouts and OOW that night - it was darkness. As I have said before and speaking with a medical background, night vision in humans is relatively poor even with acclimatization and depth perception is particularly affected. Under the prevailing conditions that night, the lookouts, despite their training and experience, would not have been able to form a near-accurate mental picture of how far the iceberg really was when they first saw it and how quickly the ship would close in on it.
No doubt I'll get told off for referring to it for the upteenth time, but please take a look at this article: During the night of April 14th 1912, Captain E
The serial illustrations give an excellent idea as to how an apparently 'distant' iceberg could close-in quite rapidly. It is sometimes called the "blossom effect" and we humans are quite susceptible to it.
Not that I can find. According to an article which appeared in the La Chronique de Bayonne (a French newspaper) on 17 April 1912, there was only SOS message sent. After inspecting his ship, he realized he could make it to New York on his own:
S.S. Niagara hits an iceberg
The French liner almost met Titanic's fate...
Julian Atkins
Member
I have long been a student of Brian T Hill, as many years previously was Paul Lee.
I think that at the British Inquiry a certain type of Captain was called to give evidence to support Captain Smith. I think from newspaper reports of other Captains interviewed at the time a contrary view existed. That would include Captain Dow of the Cunard ship Carmania, and Captain Juham of the SS Niagara. Also Captain Clarke of the Mesaba, and Captain Hains of the Parisian, and Captain Mace of the La Bretagne; all of whom encountered the ice field and bergs that later doomed Titanic.
It seems to me that at the British Inquiry none of the Captains who had experience of that particular ice field and bergs was ever called to give evidence/testimony apart from Captain Lord and Captain Moore and Captain Rostron.
Captain Dow of the Cunard Liner Carmania and Captain Juham of the Niagara could easily have been called to give evidence at the USA Inquiry.
There is quite a lot to investigate about all this.
I have 2 articles from the New York Herald being the report of Captain Dow of the Cunard liner Carmania referring to the SS Niagara amongst other things. And then the report and interview of both Captain Juham of the SS Niagara and it’s wireless officer when they eventually docked in New York on the 17th April damaged by the ice field.
I think that at the British Inquiry a certain type of Captain was called to give evidence to support Captain Smith. I think from newspaper reports of other Captains interviewed at the time a contrary view existed. That would include Captain Dow of the Cunard ship Carmania, and Captain Juham of the SS Niagara. Also Captain Clarke of the Mesaba, and Captain Hains of the Parisian, and Captain Mace of the La Bretagne; all of whom encountered the ice field and bergs that later doomed Titanic.
It seems to me that at the British Inquiry none of the Captains who had experience of that particular ice field and bergs was ever called to give evidence/testimony apart from Captain Lord and Captain Moore and Captain Rostron.
Captain Dow of the Cunard Liner Carmania and Captain Juham of the Niagara could easily have been called to give evidence at the USA Inquiry.
There is quite a lot to investigate about all this.
I have 2 articles from the New York Herald being the report of Captain Dow of the Cunard liner Carmania referring to the SS Niagara amongst other things. And then the report and interview of both Captain Juham of the SS Niagara and it’s wireless officer when they eventually docked in New York on the 17th April damaged by the ice field.
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Julian Atkins
Member
I can recall Brian T Hill referencing the SS Niagara case.
I don’t know why the Cunard liner the Carmania was the only ship to respond to the SS Niagara’s SOS distress call.
I don’t know why the Cunard liner the Carmania was the only ship to respond to the SS Niagara’s SOS distress call.
Arun Vajpey
Member
Julian has dug up a bit more interesting information. Sorry Julian, I read your PM first before coming to the open forums and can now see that you have already mentioned the Carmania connection here.
This an excerpt from Julian's message to me.
Julian again:
That to me is MOST interesting. I assume that it would have been after the Carmania's exchange with the Niagara, which Wiki says was on Wednesday 10th April. It would be great to know the times and contents of the Carmania's message to the Titanic, especially as it was an MSG; the reason for the MSG prefix might have been because the message might have included information about the Niagara's encounter with ice.
Is that known for certain? Could there have been exchanges with other liners but not prioritized later because Captain Juham declined assistance and the Niagara reached New York harbor safely a few days later?
I fully agree in the light of the information that you have supplied. We might have learned some relevant information.
Julian Atkins
Member
The New York Herald 15th April 1912 contains the report from the Carmania in respect of ice it encountered, and going to the aid of the SS Niagara. The Carmania apparently docked in New York on 14th April. The SOS from the SS Niagara is stated to be the previous Thursday - so 11th April. Captain Dow is quoted as saying the Carmania had entered the ice at latitude 41.58 longitude 50.20.
The New York Herald 17th April 1912 states inter alia that the SS Niagara was one of a number of transatlantic steamships to arrive in New York "yesterday". According to a report made by Captain Juham to the French Transatlantic Steamship Company he saw his first iceberg on 10th April at 10.30am in latitude 44.39 longitude 46.09.
The Carmania's ice warning to Caronia is on p.125 of Hughes 'Titanic Calling' :-
"11th April 1912 To Capt Caronia
4am GMT Lat 41.45N Long 52.12W Had light to mod SW to NW winds since leaving Patches of fog from 48 to 51W Passed a large number of bergs growlers and extensive field ice in Lat 41.58N Long 50.20W Compts Dow"
Sorry, it is to the Caronia NOT to Titanic. Apologies for my error. (Caronia sent its own ice warning to Titanic on 14th April).
The New York Herald 17th April 1912 states inter alia that the SS Niagara was one of a number of transatlantic steamships to arrive in New York "yesterday". According to a report made by Captain Juham to the French Transatlantic Steamship Company he saw his first iceberg on 10th April at 10.30am in latitude 44.39 longitude 46.09.
The Carmania's ice warning to Caronia is on p.125 of Hughes 'Titanic Calling' :-
"11th April 1912 To Capt Caronia
4am GMT Lat 41.45N Long 52.12W Had light to mod SW to NW winds since leaving Patches of fog from 48 to 51W Passed a large number of bergs growlers and extensive field ice in Lat 41.58N Long 50.20W Compts Dow"
Sorry, it is to the Caronia NOT to Titanic. Apologies for my error. (Caronia sent its own ice warning to Titanic on 14th April).
Arun Vajpey
Member
Understood, of course but aww, a tad disappointing. I was quite excited to hear that the Titanic might have received an ice related message on the night it was crossing from Cherbourg to Queenstown that originated from a ship that was in the same general region that the WSL ship would meet its iceberg 4 days later.
I don't suppose there is a chance that the Caronia might have then passed the message to other ships, including the Titanic on Thursday 11th April 1912?
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