The fourth card player Carter or Ryerson

I read recently in a new book that Arthur Ryerson left his family for a short while to play cards. Archibald Gracie was told it was Ryerson, but his family accounts that he was with them durinig the sinking. Then I read it was Billy Carter. Did he really desert his family at the first sign of danger to play cards?
 
Hi!

What time are you talking about, and which fourth player. If this was the "last hand" being played at 2 am, then Mr Carter was busy getting on to a boat. This leaves Mr Ryerson as the likely third player, just seeng his wife off.

Mr Carter did not actually leave the ship prior to his family. Although he was not around when his family left at 1:50 am on boat 4, he was around the vicinity of collapsible C, and when he got a chance climbed on to it. Recent research shows that collapsible C left at around 2 am.

Daniel.
 
The Ryerson family was only on the Titanic because Arthur Ryerson Jr. had been killed in a car accident; the family cancelled their European plans and were returning for the funeral. By all the accounts I've read, Mr. Ryerson was totally crushed, and unlikely to play cards at any time, let alone when his family needed him.

The story of Lifeboat 4, on which many famous Titanic families survived, is worth a book in itself. Mrs. Astor, the Carters, Mrs. Walter Miller Clark, the Ryersons, Mrs. Thayer, and Mrs. Widener all ended up on this lifeboat. Mr. Lightoller's loading of these passengers is a not tribute to his organization skills. It was one of the first lifeboats to start to launch and yet one of the last to actually hit the water, and yet it was still only half full and no men were allowed aboard. (Other than the Collapsibles, Lifeboat 4 also had more people rescued from the water than any other.)

Lightoller, who sounds totally overwhelmed at this point, wasn't even going to allow young Jack Ryerson aboard. Mr. Ryerson, who had just lost his namesake a few days before, was not about to lose another. "Of course that boy goes with his mother. He is only 13 years old," he objected.

Anyway, to make a long story end, I can't see Ryerson being a fourth.

There were quite a few card games going on. Some groups seemed to have 5 and some 3, but I don't recall any looking for a fourth.
 
In the latest video from Titanic Honor and Glory at 2:11:24 it is claimed that Mr Ryerson was the fourth card player. However, it is not clear to which source the team is referring. This note appears at 1:48 AM, four minutes after boat 4 was launched (in this video) with the Ryerson family on board.



However, I wouldn't take some of the timings and notes in this video too seriously. At 1:29:14 it is also claimed that Alfred Nichols and his six sailors should not return from opening the gangway doors on D-deck. In my opinion, this is a myth that should actually be considered disproved, as there are at least two survivors who saw Nichols on deck later that night. At 2:32:24 they also took over the wild newspaper story of Harold Bride, which Bride told to a New York Times reporter, in which he and his colleague fought against a stoker who allegedly tried to steal a life jacket...

Nevertheless, I would like to say that the quality of the animation is breathtaking and I am very grateful for the work of the entire Titanic Honor and Glory team :)
 
In the latest video from Titanic Honor and Glory at 2:11:24 it is claimed that Mr Ryerson was the fourth card player. However, it is not clear to which source the team is referring. This note appears at 1:48 AM, four minutes after boat 4 was launched (in this video) with the Ryerson family on board.
Colonel Gracie mentioned it was him in two accounts from the 27th of April (an account in the Outlook Magazine) and the 30th of April (day 11 of the American Senate Inquiry), however he wasn't certain of it. He stated it happened around 12:40/00:40.

From the account of Mrs. Ryerson it can be debunked that her husband was the fourth man. She stated her husband was asleep during the collision, got dressed and insisted to the family to stick together.

In his book Colonel Gracie changed his mind and stated the fourth player was a stranger. I have my suspicion who it was, but that will be a story for another time.
 
Carter did leave the ship before his family, so it makes sense that he deserted his family.
(I know that this is a very old post, but this thread has been renewed and so I decided to post my opinion)

I do NOT believe that William Carter either "deserted" his family or even left the Titanic before them. (Mind you, he should have left that harridan of a wife long before if he had any sense). Carter saw his wife and son safely into Lifeboat #4, which was lowered at around 01:50am (or a minute or two later). He then crossed to the starboard side and waited while Collapsible C completed loading and Ismay loudly checked if there were any other women or children to board before entering the lifeboat himself. Although there is no proof, the timing suggests that William Carter entered Collapsible C just before it was lowered at (or very close to) 02:00 am. It was not his fault that Collapsible C reached the Carpathia before Lifeboat #4 so that he was already on board the rescue ship when his wife and son arrived.
 
Titanic authors seem to have always assumed that the four card players did not survive the sinking, as Clarence Moore, Major Butt, and Francis Millet did not survive the sinking. I think it's possible that the fourth, unknown card player actually survived the sinking. Assuming Mr Carter didn't leave his family at Boat 4, there's only a handful of male first class passengers left who may have been involved in this card game.

If the incident really took place around 12:40 AM, then all those passengers who left the Titanic in one of the forward lifeboats that were lowered early in the sinking will be excluded, as we have to assume that the game was not over when Gracie passed through the smoking room and of course it would have taken the players a while to get to the forward boats on the boat deck.

But why didn't the fourth surviving card player ever tell his story? Perhaps because his actions were not particularly legal and he did not want to attract media attention. It may be that Thomas Krom had already thought of it, I could imagine that the three gentlemen Millet, Butt and Moore were actually joined in their final hours by one of the three professional gamblers on board. This man left the smoking room quickly after the game was finished and escaped in one of the lifeboats that were lowered to the first-class promenade deck. That would also explain why the three gentlemen Butt, Millet and Moore were not seen by other survivors during the evacuation, or rather only very late, a short time before the final sinking.

The three professionell gamblers on Titanic were Harry Haven Homer, George Andrew Brereton and Charles Hallace Romaine. All three gave very different accounts of how they escaped from Titanic. Typical for male survivors, they claimed to have been pulled out of the water by a lifeboat to avoid stigmatization by society, but these stories are not very believable, as the few surviving swimmers rescued by boats 4, D and 14 are known by name.
  • George Brereton is often assigned to Boat 9. However, since he indicated that there were several dining room stewards in his boat, boats 11 and 15 are also possible.
  • Charles Romaine also stated that there were several dining room stewards in his lifeboat, which leads us again to boats 9, 11 and 15.
  • Harry Homer seems to have been the only one of the three gamblers who mentioned the number of his lifeboat in his accounts: boat 15.
In his lifeboat summary Peter Engberg-Klarström writes about boat 15: "Three card sharps from first class seem to have found seats in the boat, there may have been a second class gentleman in it and the rest of the passengers from third class."

Actually, I do not think that the three men escaped in the same lifeboat. They must have returned from the smoke room to their cabins to get the profits of the last few days and to get warmer clothes because they were wearing evening dress and surely did not wait for each other. Once I read a statement from one of the inquirys in which a witness stated that there was only one first-class passenger in boat 15. Unfortunately, I can't remember which witness told this. Maybe you can help me.

In my opinion it is possible that Harry Homer was the fourth card player. He got the three gentlemen involved in a card game, which I'm sure didn't end before 1:20 AM. At an unknown time he returned to his cabin to get his money because he realised that the ship was sinking. He got an overcoat and a lifejacket and returned to the deserted smoking room. At this time he could hear loud voices from the promenade deck and stepped out in the night where he found the boats 13 and 15. After boat 13 was launched nearly fully loaded, he tried his luck at boat 15 and actually managed to get a seat after First Officer William Murdoch allowed men to fill up the empty seats...
 
In my opinion it is possible that Harry Homer was the fourth card player.
Harry Homer gave an account on the Carpathia to First class passenger Emma Lillian Hutchison (1882-1956) under his false name: "E Haven", where he told at the time of the collision he was playing cards with First class passenger Howard Brown Case (1865-1912) and told her that they played for nearly an hour when a man told him he would better go up on deck, which he did leaving Mr. Case behind. This statement from Mrs. Hutchinson comes from the New York American on the 19th of April 1912.
 
I did not know this account. Thank you, Thomas :)
Glad to be at service Michael, I personally suspect the fourth man was either William Ernest Carter (based on statements from his son and daughter considering he's barely mentioned in either of their accounts, according to Lucile Polk Carter her diary it was Alexander Milne Cairns who helped the family into lifeboat number 4), George Andrew Brereton, Charles Hallace Romaine or perhaps someone whom we haven't thought about yet. I can hint that I already was looking deeper into this topic, but let us say that more will come.
 
I personally suspect the fourth man was either William Ernest Carter (based on statements from his son and daughter considering he's barely mentioned in either of their accounts, according to Lucile Polk Carter her diary it was Alexander Milne Cairns who helped the family into lifeboat number 4), George Andrew Brereton, Charles Hallace Romaine or perhaps someone whom we haven't thought about yet.
While it is possible that William Carter was that "fourth man", if he was it would not have been the same situation had it been Brereton, Romaine or Homer. Carter was not a professional card sharp and so if he was indeed playing with those other three gentlemen from First Class, there would be no question marks attached to it. BUT, I would not give much importance to what Lucile Carter or her then 11-year old son William Jr (who would have said what his mother wanted him to say) said about Carter. Mrs Carter was a nasty piece of work and while her husband was no angel himself, he should have considered himself lucky to get rid of that pile of baggage that he called a wife when their split came. Lucile Carter shamelessly washed her dirty linen in public, calling her husband a "wet dishrag" etc and making ridiculous claims of 'cruelty'. It is out of scope in this thread to discuss details (they are there in the Carter threads anyway and several links that can be found) but judging by the events after the disaster, there is strong probability that Lucile was already having an affair.
 
BUT, I would not give much importance to what Lucile Carter or her then 11-year old son William Jr (who would have said what his mother wanted him to say) said about Carter. Mrs Carter was a nasty piece of work and while her husband was no angel himself, he should have considered himself lucky to get rid of that pile of baggage that he called a wife when their split came. Lucile Carter shamelessly washed her dirty linen in public, calling her husband a "wet dishrag" etc and making ridiculous claims of 'cruelty'. It is out of scope in this thread to discuss details (they are there in the Carter threads anyway and several links that can be found) but judging by the events after the disaster, there is strong probability that Lucile was already having an affair.
With Lucile Polk Carter her diary I didn't refer to Mrs. Carter, but their daughter. The diary was saved from the ship, and includes information on the voyage:
image1.jpg
index1.png
I haven't read Mrs. Carter's statements for as yet on the whereabouts of her husband during the sinking, but I already had some caution in mind about it.
 
Understood and thanks for clarifying it.

I haven't read Mrs. Carter's statements for as yet on the whereabouts of her husband during the sinking, but I already had some caution in mind about it.
An old friend from British Titanic Society, a Finn named Juha Peltonen, had an interest in the Carters and did research on their Titanic experiences and survival. I have lost touch with Juha for several years but back in the 1990s we discussed a lot about lifeboat occupancies etc during the annual Titanic conferences in Southampton, especially the survival of Ismay and Bill Carter on Collapsible C. From that and other sources, Lucile Carter comes out as an impulsive liar who changed her stories like clothes. In the immediate aftermath of the Titanic she told newspaper reporters about the poignant parting at Lifeboat #4 as William Carter helped his wife and kids into the boat and stood back on the deck himself. Some sources believe that Lucile was upset that her husband, himself saved on Collapsible C, had reached the rescue ship Carpathia ahead of his own family but it seems like the trouble actually started after Carter was seriously injured during a polo game a few months later and was in a coma. When she filed for divorce (the details of which have not been fully disclosed) in 1914, Lucile claimed that on the Titanic she never saw her husband from the moment he came inti their cabin and told her to dress the children and herself in preparation to up to the boat deck till she saw him on the Carpathia. I do not for one moment believe her infamous story about her husband's careless remark about having just had 'jolly good breakfast' when they met on board the rescue ship. Then there were more tales about him being persistently drunk, horsewhipping her etc, most of which sound extremely theatrical.
 
Back
Top