Titanic engineers (Timeline production)

[Steven Christian]

This popped up on my YT channel. Don't know if it has been posted before. I don't recall seeing it before. There were a few things I question but nothing major. It was entertaining IMO. It's a dramatized version of what the black gang did below decks so take it for what's it worth. I like the Timeline productions they do on history. But like all dramatizations they take liberties here and there. Cheers.

 

[Seumas]

It was shown in the UK and Ireland under the title "Saving Titanic" several years ago..

I'd have to disagree that it was just a few things they got wrong, there are quite a lot of things they got wrong in this production.

Probably the biggest error in my opinion is the continuation of the huge myth that the engineers were still at their posts when the end came. That's just not true

 

[Thomas Krom]

Probably the biggest error in my opinion is the continuation of the huge myth that the engineers were still at their posts when the end came. That's just not true

I wouldn't name it a big myth or error. While indeed at an estimated 1:20 Senior second engineer William Edward Farquharson ordered out a group of about 40 firemen, trimmers, greasers and possibly even engineers off their duty and some engineers were even seen on the boat deck I personally don't believe it is factual to say if all engineers were up on the boat deck near the end. We know of one surviving greaser, Alfred Albert White, that some of the electricians (but not all based on the fact that electrician Boylett Herbert Jupe his body was recovered) stayed below till the very end.

 

[Seumas]

I wouldn't name it a big myth or error. While indeed at an estimated 1:20 Senior second engineer William Edward Farquharson ordered out a group of about 40 firemen, trimmers, greasers and possibly even engineers off their duty and some engineers were even seen on the boat deck I personally don't believe it is factual to say if all engineers were up on the boat deck near the end. We know of one surviving greaser, Alfred Albert White, that some of the electricians (but not all based on the fact that electrician Boylett Herbert Jupe his body was recovered) stayed below till the very end.

I recall back in January making a post with much of that content on the "Dive Bell Effect" thread.

It only reinforces what a growing a number of people are coming to realise. It's an very inspiring heroic myth of sorts but that's all it is - and a myth that has to die for the truth to be told.

There was once a time when I believed in it myself but then others opened my eyes to the truth.

The whole idea of most or all of the engineers died at their posts deep down within the ship simply came about from the newspapers of 1912 putting two and two together and coming up with five - "none of the engineers survived, so they must have all drowned in the engine room".

The story is also in part down to the social and cultural expectations of Victorian and Edwardian world. One was expected to show bravery, stoicism, duty, sacrifice no matter what. That's what the public wanted to read and it's what the newspapers gave them.

Alfred White was there in the engine room until late on it is certainly true. However, he was not there until the very end, otherwise he obviously would not have survived. For all we know the handful of remaining engineers could have been just a minute or two behind White when they made it on the boat deck.

The very fact that the second most senior engineer, Bell's right hand man, led a large group of engineers and ratings out of the engine room at c01:20 tells it's own story. For Bell to dispense with the services of such a skilled an experienced man like Farquharson shows he can't have needed a full complement of men and logically must surely kept only those he needed.

Perhaps Bell let the married men go ? We'll never know.

We have engineers identified in the vicinity of the aft port side boats basically just hanging around.

Another problem the great heroic sacrifice theory has is this. Why did a couple of firemen positively identify Chiefie Bell on the boat deck moments before the bridge went under ? If the engineers as the myth has it truly were still at their posts then why was Bell on deck ? If Bell was on the boat deck then he surely must have overseen the successful evacuation of his engine room.

There would have come a point where it was simply pointless for Captain Smith to have these men continue, and cruel to leave them down there without a chance to swim for it.

Now this next bit does not concern the engineers but it does show clear evidence that Captain Smith, knowing the end was now not far off, dismissed some of his men from vitally important duties.

At *01:50, Smith orders QM Rowe to cease firing detonators and go help with the boats.

At 01:57, he tells Bride and Phillips that they can quit and save themselves, although they remain at it for perhaps another five or ten minutes.

As we can see, Smith did not expect Rowe, Bride and Phillips to keep at their key jobs until the sea overwhelmed them and gave them orders to cease their duties. Why not the engineers ? All it would have taken was a ten second phone call from the bridge to the engine room.

I'm afraid that this has to be filed under the same heading as the orchestra that night. A stirring, romantic story of stoicism and heroism at sea but simply not true.

The engineers and electricians were a fine bunch of laddies I'm certain of that beyond doubt. They did their job and they did it well. The best way for all of us to honour their memory is to tell the blunt truth about their fate and not what some overenthusiastic sensation hunting journalists of 1912 wanted the public to believe. These men deserved better than that.

*Sam Halpern's timeline.

 

[Thomas Krom]

Hello Seamas,

I sincerely apologize for my late response, I was sound asleep. If one reads the ongoing news, which is fully unrelated to this topic, one might be very worried since it is something completely unseen in the last decades. I pray for the best for humanity as a whole.

I recall back in January making a post with much of that content on the "Dive Bell Effect" thread.

It only reinforces what a growing a number of people are coming to realise. It's an very inspiring heroic myth of sorts but that's all it is - and a myth that has to die for the truth to be told.

There was once a time when I believed in it myself but then others opened my eyes to the truth.

The whole idea of most or all of the engineers died at their posts deep down within the ship simply came about from the newspapers of 1912 putting two and two together and coming up with five - "none of the engineers survived, so they must have all drowned in the engine room".

The story is also in part down to the social and cultural expectations of Victorian and Edwardian world. One was expected to show bravery, stoicism, duty, sacrifice no matter what. That's what the public wanted to read and it's what the newspapers gave them.

As I stated I personally don't believe the Titanic went down with literally her entire or most of her component of second, third, fourth, fifth and sixth engineers being inside. As I stated some engineers (including chief engineer Bell, although I didn’t refer to him by name in my post above) were indeed seen on the boat deck which would make the statement that all the engineers died at their post indeed a myth. However, I believe it can’t be stated as a fact that there weren’t any engineers that did literally went down with the ship below decks, but this is only due lack of eyewitnesses reports. Keep in mind I don't just refer to the engineers but other high ranked personal of the engine crew, such as the electricians, too.

Alfred White was there in the engine room until late on it is certainly true. However, he was not there until the very end, otherwise he obviously would not have survived. For all we know the handful of remaining engineers could have been just a minute or two behind White when they made it on the boat deck.

Greaser Alfred Albert White wasn't stationed in the reciprocating engine room or low pressure turbine room during. He was stationed at the electric engine room and the main feeder switchboard room. He recalled that Chief electrician Peter Porter Sloan (1881-1912) was there as joined by the assistant manager of the electrical works of Harland and Wolff (and a first class passenger) William Henry Marsh Parr (1882-1912) and the outside foreman of the engine fitters (and a second class passenger) Anthony Wood Frost (1874-1912). If his remarkable escape is to be believed he went forward to the turbine engine room and climbed up the turbine engine room casing. Of-course, factually speaking, his statements would only prove that about 50 minutes after the order was given by Senior second engineer William Edward Farquharson (1873-1912) to a group of firemen, trimmers, greasers to leave their post there were still men below decks doing their duty. However, this doesn't point at the engineers but at some of the electricians. Of-course one might could say, despite it being pure speculation, that the men at the main feeder switchboard left their post shortly after White left and climbed up the emergency stairwell present in the electric engine room. However, we shall never know this.

The very fact that the second most senior engineer, Bell's right hand man, led a large group of engineers and ratings out of the engine room at c01:20 tells it's own story. For Bell to dispense with the services of such a skilled an experienced man like Farquharson shows he can't have needed a full complement of men and logically must surely kept only those he needed.

I haven’t found any statement that supports that Senior second engineer William Edward Farquharson (1873-1912) actually personally led this group on their way, if you have any statement that does support this I would be interested to see it. As far as I am aware Greaser Frederick William Scott (1884-1915) only mentioned that Senior second engineer Farquharson ordered several man out at 1:20. According to Scott there were also no engineers present in this group:

5794. When you got the order, "All out of the engine room," did you see any of the engineers coming up?
- No, not at the time.

The next question that was asked to him however supports that there were engineers relieved of duty on the boat deck at about 1:50:

5795. Between the time when you left the engine room and the time that you say that you saw certain engineers on the boat deck, how much time had elapsed?
- I should say about half-an-hour.

Greaser Scott also recalled that he didn’t saw the all the engineers:

5830. Did I catch you to say that you saw the lights of a number of boats belonging to the "Titanic" when you were on board?
- Yes, on the starboard side well away from the ship.

5831. How many engineers do you think there were?
- Eight I saw.

5832. Officer engineers, I mean?
- About eight I saw on deck.

5833. There are 36 I am told, all told?
- I think so.

5834. So when you said you saw all the engineers you must have meant all the engineers that you knew?
- Yes.

5835. You saw only eight of them?
- I saw eight of them.

5836. Out of 36?
- Yes.
If true, which it most likely is, it points out that a few engineers on the port side (the statement on the starboard side is most likely a mistake on Scott's part considering he was in lifeboat number 4, which was on the port side).

Perhaps Bell let the married men go ? We'll never know.

We have engineers identified in the vicinity of the aft port side boats basically just hanging around.

Another problem the great heroic sacrifice theory has is this. Why did a couple of firemen positively identify Chiefie Bell on the boat deck moments before the bridge went under ? If the engineers as the myth has it truly were still at their posts then why was Bell on deck ? If Bell was on the boat deck then he surely must have overseen the successful evacuation of his engine room.

There would have come a point where it was simply pointless for Captain Smith to have these men continue, and cruel to leave them down there without a chance to swim for it.

Now this next bit does not concern the engineers but it does show clear evidence that Captain Smith, knowing the end was now not far off, dismissed some of his men from vitally important duties.

All it would have taken was a ten second phone call from the bridge to the engine room.

While I do indeed doubt that chief engineer Bell wouldn’t have left any men behind I know, speaking from experience, that there are always brave people entitled to their duties even if it means a certain death if they keep doing that. I don’t refer to chief engineer Bell with that statement but to other engineers. Considering that the power was dying at that point, of which captain Smith was aware, I don’t know if he would have used the loud speaking telephone in wheelhouse which was connected to the starting platform of the reciprocating engine room to give the order to chief engineer Bell and his men to be relieved of their duty. It could have been possible that the loud speaking telephones didn’t even work anymore at that point. However this is once again pure speculation on my part.

At *01:50, Smith orders QM Rowe to cease firing detonators and go help with the boats.

At 01:57, he tells Bride and Phillips that they can quit and save themselves, although they remain at it for perhaps another five or ten minutes.

As we can see, Smith did not expect Rowe, Bride and Phillips to keep at their key jobs until the sea overwhelmed them and gave them orders to cease their duties.

If one looks at the timing of the wireless messages send out it appears that senior wireless operator Phillips and junior wireless operator Bride stayed on duty for about 13 minutes after the order was given, considering that the last message: "CQD MGY. CQD This is..." was send at an estimated 2:10.

I'm afraid that this has to be filed under the same heading as the orchestra that night. A stirring, romantic story of stoicism and heroism at sea but simply not true.

The engineers and electricians were a fine bunch of laddies I'm certain of that beyond doubt. They did their job and they did it well. The best way for all of us to honour their memory is to tell the blunt truth about their fate and not what some overenthusiastic sensation hunting journalists of 1912 wanted the public to believe. These men deserved better than that.

I tend to disagree with the statement that there is no exact truth behind the final moments of both that the high ranked crewmembers of the engine crew and the band playing till the end since if one looks at the tapestry of information on the subject the truth behind it all is more complicated than just being a fact and myth.Based on the evidence at hand we can only say for certain that a group of engineers made it up to the upper deck.

I believe no matter if they went up to the deck or stayed below one fact stays, these men were heroes beyond any doubt. I also fully agree with you that the truth about the fate of these brave men has been more legend than fact due to Edwardian sensationalism. I only believe that it can’t be stated, as a fact at-least, that all engineers were on the upper deck as the Titanic went down. Let us commemorate the names of all these brave heroes:

Chief engineer Joseph Bell (1862-1912)

Senior second engineer William Edward Farquharson (1873-1912)

Second engineer John Henry Hesketh (1879-1912)

Junior second engineer Norman John Harrison (1873-1912)

Senior assistant second engineer Bertie Wilson (1884-1912)

Junior second engineer Herbert Gifford Harvey (1878-1912)

Junior assistant second engineer Jonathan Shepherd (1880-1912)

Senior Third Engineer George Fox Hosking (1875-1912)

Junior Assistant Third Engineer James Cameron Fraser (1882-1912)

Senior Assistant Third Engineer Charley Hodge (1883-1912)

Junior Assistant Third Engineer Francis Ernest George Coy (1885-1912)

Junior third engineer Edward Charles Dodd (1873-1912)

Senior Fourth Engineer Leonard Hodgkinson (1866-1912)

Junior Fourth Engineer James Muil Smith (1873-1912)

Junior assistant Fourth engineer Henry Watson Dodds (1885-1912)

Junior assistant Fourth engineer Arthur Ward (1888-1912)

Senior assistant Fourth engineer Henry Ryland Dyer (1887-1912)

Extra Fourth Engineer (refrigeration)Thomas Hulman Kemp (1869-1912)

Senior fifth engineer Frank Alfred Parsons (1885-1912)

Junior fifth engineer William Dickson Mackie (1879-1912)

Extra fifth engineer Robert Millar (1885-1912)

Senior Sixth Engineer William Young Moyes (1887-1912)

Junior Sixth engineer William Thomas Carson McReynolds (1889-1912)

Boilermaker George Alexander Chisnall (1875-1912)

Junior Boilermaker Hugh Joseph Fitzpatrick (1893-1912)

Deck engineer Henry Philip Creese (1867-1912)

Assistant deck engineer Thomas Millar (1879-1912)

Plumber Arthur John Rous (1886-1912)

Electricians

Chief electrician Peter Porter Sloan (1881-1912)

Second Electrician Alfred Samuel Allsop (1876-1912)

Electrician Boylett Herbert Jupe (1881-1912)

Assistant Electrician Albert George Ervine (1893-1912)

Assistant Electrician William Patrick Kelly (1888-1912)

Assistant Electrician Alfred Pirrie Middleton (1884-1912)

Chief engineer’s secretary/writer William Luke Duffy (1875-1912)


Yours sincerely,


Thomas

PS Keep in mind I don't want to hold on to the legend created or disagree with you on this subject.

 

[Stephen Carey]

As Chief Engineer I would have considered that no boilers needed firing owing to the amount of steam reserve in the boilers being amply sufficient to supply the dynamos, bearing in mind that they could be run from the single ended boilers in BR1 in port.
Once it was evident that the main engines would never run again, that the main sea suctions were likely to come out of the water as the stern rose and that the 60kW of the two auxiliary dynamos higher in the ship could keep the lights on, the auxiliary condenser and its seawater and air pump would have been started (the discharge from this pump is probably the one that suddenly started as one of the aftermost starboard lifeboats was lowered, nearly flooding it).
The main dynamos could then run off this auxiliary arrangement, with the auxiliary dynamos started and running such that the main dynamos and their heavy steam consuming seawater circulating pumps could be shut down.
There would little or no need for crew other than to shut the main stops on boilers in boiler rooms that were progressively flooding, an electrician or two at the switchboard to cross connect circuits (though really just relying on distribution board fuses to blow on contact with water) plus one engineer to look after the dynamos and another the auxiliary systems. Whilst it was becoming difficult to evacuate the enginerooms I would have ordered everyone out. Whether or not I would have stayed myself though is debateable!

 

[Steven Christian]

As Chief Engineer I would have considered that no boilers needed firing owing to the amount of steam reserve in the boilers being amply sufficient to supply the dynamos, bearing in mind that they could be run from the single ended boilers in BR1 in port.
Once it was evident that the main engines would never run again, that the main sea suctions were likely to come out of the water as the stern rose and that the 60kW of the two auxiliary dynamos higher in the ship could keep the lights on, the auxiliary condenser and its seawater and air pump would have been started (the discharge from this pump is probably the one that suddenly started as one of the aftermost starboard lifeboats was lowered, nearly flooding it).
The main dynamos could then run off this auxiliary arrangement, with the auxiliary dynamos started and running such that the main dynamos and their heavy steam consuming seawater circulating pumps could be shut down.
There would little or no need for crew other than to shut the main stops on boilers in boiler rooms that were progressively flooding, an electrician or two at the switchboard to cross connect circuits (though really just relying on distribution board fuses to blow on contact with water) plus one engineer to look after the dynamos and another the auxiliary systems. Whilst it was becoming difficult to evacuate the enginerooms I would have ordered everyone out. Whether or not I would have stayed myself though is debateable!

If the fires went out how long was the reserve capacity that the boilers could still make steam? Not too familiar with drum boilers. Only worked on a few and that was usually just jumpering out some permissives to get them going again. If I remember right the ones I worked on would make steam for another 30-45 mins or so.

 

[Steven Christian]

Hello Seamas,

I sincerely apologize for my late response, I was sound asleep. If one reads the ongoing news, which is fully unrelated to this topic, one might be very worried since it is something completely unseen in the last decades. I pray for the best for humanity as a whole.

As I stated I personally don't believe the Titanic went down with literally her entire or most of her component of second, third, fourth, fifth and sixth engineers being inside. As I stated some engineers (including chief engineer Bell, although I didn’t refer to him by name in my post above) were indeed seen on the boat deck which would make the statement that all the engineers died at their post indeed a myth. However, I believe it can’t be stated as a fact that there weren’t any engineers that did literally went down with the ship below decks, but this is only due lack of eyewitnesses reports. Keep in mind I don't just refer to the engineers but other high ranked personal of the engine crew, such as the electricians, too.

Greaser Alfred Albert White wasn't stationed in the reciprocating engine room or low pressure turbine room during. He was stationed at the electric engine room and the main feeder switchboard room. He recalled that Chief electrician Peter Porter Sloan (1881-1912) was there as joined by the assistant manager of the electrical works of Harland and Wolff (and a first class passenger) William Henry Marsh Parr (1882-1912) and the outside foreman of the engine fitters (and a second class passenger) Anthony Wood Frost (1874-1912). If his remarkable escape is to be believed he went forward to the turbine engine room and climbed up the turbine engine room casing. Of-course, factually speaking, his statements would only prove that about 50 minutes after the order was given by Senior second engineer William Edward Farquharson (1873-1912) to a group of firemen, trimmers, greasers to leave their post there were still men below decks doing their duty. However, this doesn't point at the engineers but at some of the electricians. Of-course one might could say, despite it being pure speculation, that the men at the main feeder switchboard left their post shortly after White left and climbed up the emergency stairwell present in the electric engine room. However, we shall never know this.

I haven’t found any statement that supports that Senior second engineer William Edward Farquharson (1873-1912) actually personally led this group on their way, if you have any statement that does support this I would be interested to see it. As far as I am aware Greaser Frederick William Scott (1884-1915) only mentioned that Senior second engineer Farquharson ordered several man out at 1:20. According to Scott there were also no engineers present in this group:

5794. When you got the order, "All out of the engine room," did you see any of the engineers coming up?
- No, not at the time.

The next question that was asked to him however supports that there were engineers relieved of duty on the boat deck at about 1:50:

5795. Between the time when you left the engine room and the time that you say that you saw certain engineers on the boat deck, how much time had elapsed?
- I should say about half-an-hour.

Greaser Scott also recalled that he didn’t saw the all the engineers:

5830. Did I catch you to say that you saw the lights of a number of boats belonging to the "Titanic" when you were on board?
- Yes, on the starboard side well away from the ship.

5831. How many engineers do you think there were?
- Eight I saw.

5832. Officer engineers, I mean?
- About eight I saw on deck.

5833. There are 36 I am told, all told?
- I think so.

5834. So when you said you saw all the engineers you must have meant all the engineers that you knew?
- Yes.

5835. You saw only eight of them?
- I saw eight of them.

5836. Out of 36?
- Yes.
If true, which it most likely is, it points out that a few engineers on the port side (the statement on the starboard side is most likely a mistake on Scott's part considering he was in lifeboat number 4, which was on the port side).


While I do indeed doubt that chief engineer Bell wouldn’t have left any men behind I know, speaking from experience, that there are always brave people entitled to their duties even if it means a certain death if they keep doing that. I don’t refer to chief engineer Bell with that statement but to other engineers. Considering that the power was dying at that point, of which captain Smith was aware, I don’t know if he would have used the loud speaking telephone in wheelhouse which was connected to the starting platform of the reciprocating engine room to give the order to chief engineer Bell and his men to be relieved of their duty. It could have been possible that the loud speaking telephones didn’t even work anymore at that point. However this is once again pure speculation on my part.

If one looks at the timing of the wireless messages send out it appears that senior wireless operator Phillips and junior wireless operator Bride stayed on duty for about 13 minutes after the order was given, considering that the last message: "CQD MGY. CQD This is..." was send at an estimated 2:10.

I tend to disagree with the statement that there is no exact truth behind the final moments of both that the high ranked crewmembers of the engine crew and the band playing till the end since if one looks at the tapestry of information on the subject the truth behind it all is more complicated than just being a fact and myth.Based on the evidence at hand we can only say for certain that a group of engineers made it up to the upper deck.

I believe no matter if they went up to the deck or stayed below one fact stays, these men were heroes beyond any doubt. I also fully agree with you that the truth about the fate of these brave men has been more legend than fact due to Edwardian sensationalism. I only believe that it can’t be stated, as a fact at-least, that all engineers were on the upper deck as the Titanic went down. Let us commemorate the names of all these brave heroes:

Chief engineer Joseph Bell (1862-1912)

Senior second engineer William Edward Farquharson (1873-1912)

Second engineer John Henry Hesketh (1879-1912)

Junior second engineer Norman John Harrison (1873-1912)

Senior assistant second engineer Bertie Wilson (1884-1912)

Junior second engineer Herbert Gifford Harvey (1878-1912)

Junior assistant second engineer Jonathan Shepherd (1880-1912)

Senior Third Engineer George Fox Hosking (1875-1912)

Junior Assistant Third Engineer James Cameron Fraser (1882-1912)

Senior Assistant Third Engineer Charley Hodge (1883-1912)

Junior Assistant Third Engineer Francis Ernest George Coy (1885-1912)

Junior third engineer Edward Charles Dodd (1873-1912)

Senior Fourth Engineer Leonard Hodgkinson (1866-1912)

Junior Fourth Engineer James Muil Smith (1873-1912)

Junior assistant Fourth engineer Henry Watson Dodds (1885-1912)

Junior assistant Fourth engineer Arthur Ward (1888-1912)

Senior assistant Fourth engineer Henry Ryland Dyer (1887-1912)

Extra Fourth Engineer (refrigeration)Thomas Hulman Kemp (1869-1912)

Senior fifth engineer Frank Alfred Parsons (1885-1912)

Junior fifth engineer William Dickson Mackie (1879-1912)

Extra fifth engineer Robert Millar (1885-1912)

Senior Sixth Engineer William Young Moyes (1887-1912)

Junior Sixth engineer William Thomas Carson McReynolds (1889-1912)

Boilermaker George Alexander Chisnall (1875-1912)

Junior Boilermaker Hugh Joseph Fitzpatrick (1893-1912)

Deck engineer Henry Philip Creese (1867-1912)

Assistant deck engineer Thomas Millar (1879-1912)

Plumber Arthur John Rous (1886-1912)

Electricians

Chief electrician Peter Porter Sloan (1881-1912)

Second Electrician Alfred Samuel Allsop (1876-1912)

Electrician Boylett Herbert Jupe (1881-1912)

Assistant Electrician Albert George Ervine (1893-1912)

Assistant Electrician William Patrick Kelly (1888-1912)

Assistant Electrician Alfred Pirrie Middleton (1884-1912)

Chief engineer’s secretary/writer William Luke Duffy (1875-1912)


Yours sincerely,


Thomas

PS Keep in mind I don't want to hold on to the legend created or disagree with you on this subject.

Somebody was re-closing the breakers towards the end so there were men down below close to the last minutes. I have always regarded the engineer gang as heroic for staying as long as they did. Whether it was 5, 10 or 30 minutes before she sank. They weren't dummies. They knew what was going to happen. Cheers.

 

[Stephen Carey]

If the fires went out how long was the reserve capacity that the boilers could still make steam? Not too familiar with drum boilers. Only worked on a few and that was usually just jumpering out some permissives to get them going again. If I remember right the ones I worked on would make steam for another 30-45 mins or so.

I'm afraid I don't know that, but bearing in mind that the boilers under steaming conditions were sized for the full power of the ship, a couple of 30kW dynamos would have been very sparing of steam.
I haven't seen anything on whether the boilers in Nrs 4,3 and 2 were actually stoked or not, but as the steam supply and thus the auxiliary dynamo delivery started to affect the radio, I would think that they weren't. I would imagine that only one boiler would be enough to run the auxiliary machines if it was stoked, so all those still up to pressure should be able to do it unstoked. As each dropped below the steam required, another boiler would be opened and the previous one have its stop valve closed. Conversely they could have left all the stops open and only closed them as water came into each stokehold. I believe BR 2 didn't flood until the ship broke in two.

 

[Incony]

Somebody was re-closing the breakers towards the end so there were men down below close to the last minutes. I have always regarded the engineer gang as heroic for staying as long as they did. Whether it was 5, 10 or 30 minutes before she sank. They weren't dummies. They knew what was going to happen. Cheers.

no one was reclosing breakers, they could be and were bypassed with a lever switch on the control panel - since with no power, i.e at ship startup, until a generator is running at designed speed, the amp and volt over or underload breaker trips would be open circuit, since either not enough or too much was being produced... a short circuit would produce a local overload and blow local fuses, ie in the local trip boxes throughout the ship.. The lights were perhaps erroneously switched off in boiler room 5.. needing lanterns brought in... for example - until the local switching point ( or fuse was restored ) because of distance, and the settings of the switch room breakers, they would not have tripped until the current or voltage did not meet spec... i think nearly all trips were in the bypass mode... out of circuit.. and needed no one to put them back in again.. since providing the load was less than the switchboard fuses could manage, it was just harder work for a generator... and the engineers had six.. even though they were using just the emergency generators and possibly one main generator... at least initially.. with all other electric demands shut down... and that too was the lever interlock purpose ( light/power or both ) any breaker still in circuit, was a liability at sinking. it would continually trip out with a fault error... because if one took the bypass out, and there was still a fault it would trip again - no fuses or trips tripped out, a fuse in the control room, even if one had the right one in ones hand and stood next to where it failed would take maybe 5 to 10 minutes to isolate, and replace and re- energise... if a trip was was working, and then tripped. one would try using the by pass, and then the only protection would be the main fuses, or disconnect a generator, given that all the lights stayed on until the hull broke... despite there already being half the ship underwater, and no means of local isolation since those boxes were underwater too... i think any generator stayed in circuit, no control room fuses blew, because the lights never went out until breakup... and all that suffered were the generators, it is very unlikely that the electrical staff had to do anything, there wasnt anything they could do when the hull broke and the steam supply to the generators wasnt there ... the idea of them closing bypass levers on the control panel to isolate a breaker would have meant that if the circuit was still there, it would operate, the overide switches were manual lever connection.. they would only disconnect by hand. both those on the floor mounted lever panel, and those on the control panel by the trips. There is some evidence that lights began to fail near the end and went dim... if that voltage and current loss had been detected by a trip... the lights would have gone out , they did not.. its because the trips were already by passed.. for each of the trips in this circuit, there was an override lever.. so that the engineer could get the generator up to operating condition... he could only do that by manual switch.... the trip would stay out of circuit on fault.. and there were already a great deal of faults even before breakup...

 

[Steven Christian]

no one was reclosing breakers, they could be and were bypassed with a lever switch on the control panel - since with no power, i.e at ship startup, until a generator is running at designed speed, the amp and volt over or underload breaker trips would be open circuit, since either not enough or too much was being produced... a short circuit would produce a local overload and blow local fuses, ie in the local trip boxes throughout the ship.. The lights were perhaps erroneously switched off in boiler room 5.. needing lanterns brought in... for example - until the local switching point ( or fuse was restored ) because of distance, and the settings of the switch room breakers, they would not have tripped until the current or voltage did not meet spec... i think nearly all trips were in the bypass mode... out of circuit.. and needed no one to put them back in again.. since providing the load was less than the switchboard fuses could manage, it was just harder work for a generator... and the engineers had six.. even though they were using just the emergency generators and possibly one main generator... at least initially.. with all other electric demands shut down... and that too was the lever interlock purpose ( light/power or both ) any breaker still in circuit, was a liability at sinking. it would continually trip out with a fault error... because if one took the bypass out, and there was still a fault it would trip again - no fuses or trips tripped out, a fuse in the control room, even if one had the right one in ones hand and stood next to where it failed would take maybe 5 to 10 minutes to isolate, and replace and re- energise... if a trip was was working, and then tripped. one would try using the by pass, and then the only protection would be the main fuses, or disconnect a generator, given that all the lights stayed on until the hull broke... despite there already being half the ship underwater, and no means of local isolation since those boxes were underwater too... i think any generator stayed in circuit, no control room fuses blew, because the lights never went out until breakup... and all that suffered were the generators, it is very unlikely that the electrical staff had to do anything, there wasnt anything they could do when the hull broke and the steam supply to the generators wasnt there ... the idea of them closing bypass levers on the control panel to isolate a breaker would have meant that if the circuit was still there, it would operate, the overide switches were manual lever connection.. they would only disconnect by hand. both those on the floor mounted lever panel, and those on the control panel by the trips. There is some evidence that lights began to fail near the end and went dim... if that voltage and current loss had been detected by a trip... the lights would have gone out , they did not.. its because the trips were already by passed.. for each of the trips in this circuit, there was an override lever.. so that the engineer could get the generator up to operating condition... he could only do that by manual switch.... the trip would stay out of circuit on fault.. and there were already a great deal of faults even before breakup...

Thanks for the info. Most interesting. I don't doubt anything you've said. Maybe "closing the breakers" was the wrong term to use. Regardless everything I've read over the years had the engineers and electricians (some of them ) staying till the end or close to the end to keep whatever they could running. I wish there was a detailed schematic of the tripping schemes and not just one lines. Were they instantaneous over current only or did they have a timed over current scheme combination like modern breakers have? I don't think they had automatic re-closure function to reclose and try and blow faults off the lines with a low voltage system like they had. But what you said about the by-pass switches does make sense. I did that a lot over my career on various circuits to get something running. Even when we didn't have a by-pass scheme we would just jumper around the protection. Cheers.

 

[Seumas]

Thanks for the info. Most interesting. I don't doubt anything you've said. Maybe "closing the breakers" was the wrong term to use. Regardless everything I've read over the years had the engineers and electricians (some of them ) staying till the end or close to the end to keep whatever they could running. I wish there was a detailed schematic of the tripping schemes and not just one lines. Were they instantaneous over current only or did they have a timed over current scheme combination like modern breakers have? I don't think they had automatic re-closure function to reclose and try and blow faults off the lines with a low voltage system like they had. But what you said about the by-pass switches does make sense. I did that a lot over my career on various circuits to get something running. Even when we didn't have a by-pass scheme we would just jumper around the protection. Cheers.

Such as ?

 

[Steven Christian]

Such as ?

Generators and the steam supply to them for one.

 

[Michaela Famfulikova]

It is so chilling to read the engineers' name list. They were indeed heroes.

 

[Seumas]

Generators and the steam supply to them for one.

We have had an explanation above from Mr Carey, a former marine engineer, that minimal crew would have been needed, and the vitals could still have functioned for a short while after being abandoned.

Then there is the awkward matter of eyewitnesses that place Chiefie Bell on the boat deck before moments before the end and a number of other engineers on deck long before that.

It doesn't square with the British press tales of engineers willingly being drowned in the confined space of the engine room does it ? I believe the people who were there, not the journalists.