Turbine vs Reciprocating

What kind of advantages in speed would the Olympic Class have if they installed 3 turbines instead of 2 reciprocating engines? Also with the turbines do they have to wait for the turbines to slow before putting them into reverse, like the Titanic.
thanks
 
Well, I really might misunderstood what you are looking for, but basicly:

Turbines might show a higher round per Minute output, but as faster many of them ggo, as more steam consuption and pressurre they need, thus often in high speed turbines haven't enough power to hold the rpm of desire.
Also the torque power of turbines is often lesser than reciprocating engines. So reciprocating engines need no high rpm output at the main crankshaft, because switched with a gear as high rpm than turbinees could be reached. Problem in those cases are: The up and downward movement of pistons, rods and levers can create a destructive force for the whole engine, and reciprocating engines have a higher space requirement compared to turbines, but have a better adabtibility to changing speeds. Also greasing fast moving reciprocation engines is sometimes difficult...
Turbines work like a wind-wheel: It can turn only in one direction. So most ships turbines were two part turbines: The large main turbine is for forward motion, a smaller one is for reverse motion.
To switch from full ahead to full astern in reciprocatin engines the engineer only had to shift the valve gear, in Titanic a Stephenson gear, and the engine will immediately stopped and start turning reverse. Impossible for any turbine, because here one need first shut off the steam, wait till pressure is down, and then carefullly open reverse steam and give steam to the reverse blade-wheel. This will slow down the turning motion and will start slowly turning the turbine backwards, and if it turns backwards the engineer can start adjusting power up to full steam.
This is today not anymore need, modern hydrodynamic gears can switch the turn immediately, but consume also space... and force!

But in Titanics time, it was impossible to switch a turbine form full ahead to full astern within only a view eyeblinks as in reciprocating engines. so Titanic first need to switch off the turbine from the reciprocation engine steam output. After this was shut off, the reciprocating engines could be switched in direction, with a browns engine it would take only a view seconds. The Turbine in Titanic would be stopped, and it was not able to switched in direction, Backwards thrust was only done by the two huge reciprocating engines, as Titanic and many other liners was desingend to move forward, and not astern! ;-) So the turbines lack a reverse part.
Hope this helps little!
 
Hello Steffen. Glad to hear from you. In your post you seem to suggest that the Titanic's engines could be reversed very quickly, almost immediately. I do not believe that is the case. We have data taken from the USS Delaware, a battleship of 20,380 tons displacement with reciprocating engines, which shows that it takes anywhere from 10 to 20 seconds from the time the order is received to get the engines to start backing. And then it could take from 30 to 50 seconds for the engines to back hard. This was from data supplied to the US Inquiry by H. I. CONE, Engineer in Chief U. S. Navy, Chief of Bureau. The Delaware was going ahead at 21 knots when the order was received to go full astern. For Delaware it took 1 minute 52 seconds for it to be dead in the water.

On Titanic's sister ship Olympic similar trial was run off Belfast Lough while it was going ahead at about 18 knots. According to Edward Wilding (BOT Inquiry 25295), it took 3 minutes 15 seconds for the way to be off the ship from the time the order was given to reverse. He did not say how long it took to get the engines to reverse in the first place, but I'm sure it must have been about the same as for the Delaware. Of course, as you pointed out, on the Olympic they also had to shift the changeover valve so the reciprocating engines could exhaust directly into the condensers instead of feeding the Parson's turbine. It should also be pointed out that even if the throttles are closed the engines will continue to revolve due to the wash on the propellers with the ship going at full speed. The engines have to be stopped slowly, not going into reverse with full head of steam if don't want to seriously damage values stems and chests. In other words, you cannot slam the engine into reverse by just throwing the reversing lever.

I would like to add that a similar test was done on board the USS North Dakota, a turbine equipped ship of the same size as the Delaware. On that ship it took from 1 to 2 minutes to get the propellers to reverse and several minutes for full backing power to take effect. I will refer you to the US Inquiry pp. 1121-1122. for the report on these two ships.

In the cases described above, the engineers in the engine rooms were expecting these full astern maneuvers. On the Titanic on the night of April 14th that was not the case. In fact there is very strong evidence that it took from 1 1/2 to 2 minutes to get the engines to come to a stop after the iceberg collision, and that the engines never went to full astern.
 
Very interesting. Thanks everyone! Just thought how turbines helped lusitania and mauritania so much with avoiding u-boats thought it might have help Titanic.
 
Interesting comment Chris: "...turbines helped lusitania and mauritania so much with avoiding u-boats..." Don't see that connection at all especially since the Lusi didn't quite avoid a very unpleasant encounter with one particular U-boat.
 
>>Don't see that connection at all especially since the Lusi didn't quite avoid a very unpleasant encounter with one particular U-boat.<<

Ouch! Damn the bad luck!

Curiously enough the Lusitania's speed might well have helped her had she...among other things...had all the boilers lit off and had she avoided the headlands where submarines were known to be operating. The crack mail boats, at least insofar as I understand...rarely used a military escort because they were faster then most of the available warships. The problem with this advantage is that it doesn't do you a lot of good if you don't use it.
 
Dear Samuel,
you got right, basically. But if we left beside mechanical frontiers, like material overloads, which will bend or break rods, bars, if we left aside the cruel forces, which can damage bearings, knocking out cranks, destroy pistons or blowing up cylinders, then every steam engine can be switched from full steam ahead to full steam backwards in simply and eyes blink.

Because: If we do a snapshot of the motion, we can understand why, and why mechanical overloads play the only counterpart:
In our snapshot we consider only one piston, and it's in upwards move! So the steam is below the piston, pushing it up to the cylinder top, and the top valves are open to leave the steam above the piston to the exhaust.
So what happens now, if the gear is switched?
Well, the bottom valves were first closed, lowering by the valve gear from the common march rounds (I guess approximately 40% of the pistons travel steam is let into the cylinder, then followed the cut off and the expansion, so this we in German call the 'filling' , or in english 40% cutt-off) Many triple expansion engines shout not be driven with less than 50% cut off, just to provide enough steam which could be expanded in the LP cylinders, but for our example I just use 40%. So if the gear is switched, the bottom valves were reduced in filling, immediately. From 40% down to 30%, 20%, 10% and last 0%. At 0% percent, to valves won't open, neither bottom nor top valves, regardless which position the piston has. So what happens?
The steam inside the cylinders, because to bottom valves were closed can't go anywhere, because even the steam at-top the piston is cutt-off, with no possibility to exhaust. So this steam at-top is expanded, having little expanded power left, which now works as buffer, so the top-ward travel of the piston will be slowed down by this 'brake' force of the left steam in the cylinder, and the less expansion steam below. At zero, no steam can go anywhere and we have no real power atop or below the piston, so motion is not really possible. Now the gear goes through the zero point, switching the valves. So the top valve, which was exhaust will not connected to the boiler, letting steam enter the cylinder at top, while below the piston the bottom valves are opened and connected to the exhaust. The little more powerful, if so, steam below the piston will rush through the exhaust, and the fresh steam at-top the piston will now press with the boilers pressure against the piston surface, pushing the piston down, direction is changed.
so, basically any reciprocating engine can be switched from one direction immediately to the other.
But now we come to the mechanical frontiers: Titanic has a triple expansion engine. so we have three pistons in motion, three huge cranks in motion and the cranks and weights from the gear also in motion. Each weight in motion means a mass in motion, working like a motion wheel, providing a directional power, even if the engine delivers no power anymore. So, I cannot determine how much this was, because there is an unknown force coming from the propellers, because if you close the valves the propeller will not be turned against the water, so the water will do a force against this momentum, slowing down the turns of the propeller. I can not determine how much this is, but the mechanical momentum must be still high. So Titanics Engine will, if our valve gear is closed still turning in the forward direction, even if the steam provides no power anymore to the piston the same strength as before.
So if we switch Titanics engine from full ahead to full astern, we will ensure maximum boiler pressure from the other direction of the piston against the motion force. Consider, in common steam railway engines this means 40 Tons of power from the opposite direction, and with the left over motion force, we can be sure, this might could be over the mechanical load the cranks, bearings, rods and bars will take. Like hard water hammer, this can also knock out the piston from it's rod or just blast the cylinders or cylinder seals. No good idea.
But: There is a critical round number, where the switch can be done, without going over the mechanical frontiers, also most modern steam engines got safety. so here one can switch from ahead to astern without mechanical overloads, and this magical point right now is the knowledge and 'feeling' of the chief engineer.
so here the safety valves will not blow of, and the bearings won't get damaged, and the bars won't bend or break.
So even Titanic had such a critical rounds number... So many tugboats which shift large ships in harbors had little often only double expansion engines, which turn quickly and fast, but with less motion powers, so these engines were often switched from full ahead to full astern, as needed in those shifting actions, so here the critical rounds were much higher set, as in large engines, like Titanics one.
And I do not know, and be unable to determine how quick titanics engines will get from full ahead below the critical rounds count, to switch the gear to full astern. But, one point: You will be quite faster in direction change than in turbines, because turbines act like large motion wheels, so need to slowed down more carefully than the only up and down going weights of the reciprocating engines, which came much more quickly to the switch point, and in emergency, the chief engineers will act somewhat closer to the mechanical overload point or little more above, and this is even not possible in turbines, because damage of the turbine wheel might result in complete failure of the propulsion plants. In reciprocating engines it might only lead to a damaged bearing or slightly bend rod or a blown-through sealing, thus nothing a crews cannot handle or what will set engine completely out of order. Even a broken rod won't matter, because if two intact rods left, you just dismount the rod, switch off the cylinder and go to harbor at reduced speed with remaining two intact cylinders..
Consider: Even today you can't do with modern diesel engines most times ;o)


Also, many Turbine ships can go faster, because having another boiler plant. Turbines need a continuous steam stream at a special pressure, and if the turbine had to go faster, more steam is required, not more pressure. So large water boilers provide much steam reserve, are slow acting boilers, which cannot be altered quickly to changing steam demands, like turbines have, if they were switched in speed or suddenly stopped. so here commonly fast reacting boilers, as the common water tube boilers of the Samson principle or the single-pass-through principe are used. Those boilers can deliver certain amounts of steam and alter more quickly as smoke tube boilers, like the scotch marine boilers (three pass smoke tube boilers).
so it's not a wise thing, to use water tube boilers with reciprocating engines, as reciprocating engines have a maximum steam demand, all other things is done by alter the pressure, so it better to have a boilers with large reserves, like double drum Samson boilers or common multi pass smoke tube boilers (Stephenson boiler principe).
So turbine propulsion plants require less space, and have a lighter weight, which made them desirable for the military, but: Turbines cannot compete with reciprocating engines in altering rounds and torque force! In shaft power, well, that's another point, but shaft power isn't everything, if we discus about 'racing'. Thats we you don't find tugboats with turbines, because those sea-tractors need torque power, not only speed, and the need the ability to quickly switch round and direction output.


And avoidung u-boats isn't a thing of speed, more a thing of manoeuver-ability, because strong and quick direction changes help to get hit by torpedos, and not the speed. Because torpedos, which in WW II are propelled by four cylinder reciprocating steam engines go 48 kn, much faster than still common war ships go today, so avoidung the hit is the trick, not the run away ;o)
 
Steffen: Nice hearing from you again. I think we both agree that propellers connected directly to reciprocating engines can be reversed relatively much more quickly than those connected to turbines. For those readers not familiar with the machinery arrangement on the Lusitania, an all turbine equipped ship with 4 propellers, there were two ahead high pressure turbines that ran the two outer propellers, and two low pressure ahead turbines that ran the two inboard propellers. There were also two astern turbines connected to the inner shafts that were used when going astern. To go astern, the Lusitania had thrust only on her inner two propellers.

I also agree with you that maneuverability, more than speed, was the key to avoiding being attacked by torpedos.
 
Sam & Steffen:
I have been doing some research on the question of how quickly could they have reversed the Titanic's engines. My sources are people connected with the J. O'Brien out in San Francisco and other older members of the marine engineer's community in that area.
The consensus seems to be that it would have taken 3-4 minutes from receiving the bell till the engines were going full astern. My associates assume WSL had a hand picked engine room crew on Titanic, and that someone was always standing by the throttles read to maneuver, otherwise it could take longer. This is from a bunch who sailed recips.
Regards,
Charlie
 
With all due respect for these modern day experts Charlie, we have that evidence from the Delaware trials and the Olympic trials that say otherwise. And I have no reason not to believe those results. By 3 to 4 minutes the way of the ship would have been taken off assuming of course that the engine room personnel were expecting orders in the first place. On the Titanic this was clearly not the case. In fact we know that the 2nd Engineer in charge of the watch down below, John Henry Hesketh, as well as the Assistant 2nd Engineer, Johnathan Shepherd, were both way up front in BR #6 at the time of the collision. That is not to say that there was nobody in charge of the engine rooms at that time, but it is clear that nobody expected any changes in engine orders to come down from the bridge.
 
SAm:
Maybe I didn't make myself clear. What I asked my sources was how long would it take from the telegraph ringing till the engines were going Full Astern. They are saying 3-4 minutes is the best you could expect if everything was going correctly. I'm not sure who was on watch in the engineering spaces that night. I've heard Shepard and Hesketh mentioned, but somewhere I've heard others also. But I do not for one minute think that everything went according to drill. The engineers would have been set for steady steaming, not ready to answer bells on a moments notice. Further I've read the reports on the USS Delaware trials but I don't believe they call shed much light on what happened on Titanic, wholly different way of operating an engine room. Olympic on the other hand could offer some insight, except that her crew knew what was coming, so were ready for it. Point is I don't believe they got the engines going Full Astern till after they'd hit.
Regards,
Charlie Weeks
 
Gentlemen,

I am aware that there is no evidence extant of the engineers being ready to answer bells at the time of the collision - at least, I don't know of any, but I am happy to be corrected.

Despite the above, we know also that Titanic's Officers were aware that they were approaching a probable region of ice and that they had taken some steps to prepare for this: e.g. the shutting of the scuttle forward of the bridge, the warning to the lookouts to keep watch for small ice and growlers, and even Capt. Smith's order to call him if "it becomes at all doubtful". Bearing this in mind, is it not possible that the engine room was indeed warned to be prepared for sudden engine commands that might occur? If the engine room watch were pre-prepared, perhaps Charles' sources were closer than we might think with the estimate of 3-4 minutes to achieve FULL ASTERN.

Now, Sam, you can sink my hypothesis!
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There may be no evidence that the engineers were ready to answer bells but, as one cannot prove a negative, this doesn't mean that they weren't. So, why are you so certain that it was: "clear that nobody expected any changes in engine orders to come down from the bridge."?
 
OK, we have several points here. According to Charlie's sources, the people connected with the J. O'Brien in San Francisco and other members of the marine engineering community there, it would be 3 to 4 minutes to achieve full reverse from the time the order was received down below if everything was going correctly. What I am saying is their estimate of 3 to 4 minutes to get to full reverse of the engines is far too long. With personnel expecting the order, they should be able to get things reversed quickly enough so by 3 to 4 minutes the way would be off the ship. That means full reverse would be achieved a lot sooner for the ship to come dead in the water by that time. Again assuming everything went right and they were expecting it. Why do I say this? Because we have the following from Edward Wilding about this:

quote:

The trials that I have were made again off Belfast Lough. Both engines were running at about 60 revolutions, corresponding to a speed of about 18 knots. The helm was left amidships and both engines were reversed. The way was off the ship in about three minutes and 15 seconds from the order to reverse engines being given, and the distance run was just over 3,000 feet. I might mention in that connection that, so far as we on the bridge could see, the engines were not reversed as quickly as we had seen them, and the distance is probably a little on the large side; but that is what we actually observed, and it would be very difficult to put an estimated correction on it.

Second issue is what happened on the Titanic. The only evidence we have for an order to go full astern came from Boxhall. But nobody in the engine rooms could confirm that such an order was even given. This doesn't mean it wasn't, but we don't have any substantiating evidence. Scott, who said he saw the engine room telegraphs said they went to stop, both the ordinary telegraphs and the emergency telegraphs. Dillon said the engines stooped about 1 1/2 minutes after the collision and then went astern slowly for about 2 minutes after being stopped for 1/2 minute. Ranger said he saw the changeover valves on the turbine switch to disengage the turbine from the steam supply about 2 minutes after the collision. This of course had to done before going astern at any speed. So Charlie, I don't believe they ever went Full Astern on the engines that night even if an order originally came down to do so.

By the way, Lightoller was also asked about full astern on the engines. He was on board the Titanic during her trials on Apr 02 and had experienced a demonstration of full astern coming off a 20 knot ahead speed according to Eaton and Hass. (Stopping distance reported about 850 yards but no stopping times given.) Lightoller said "No, I cannot say I remember feeling the engines going full speed astern." And he would have known how it felt.

Third issue, Paul asked why am I so certain that the engine room was not prepared? I am basing this on two things: one is the length of time it took to stop the engines according to Scott, Dillon, and Ranger, and the other is the fact that the officer of the watch down below at that time, 2/E Hesketh, had in fact left the engine room to go forward to boiler room No. 6 where Assistant 2/E Shepherd was. I would think if they were told to standby he would not have left the area of his primary responsibility. The stokeholds were connected to the engine room by way of telephones if one had to communicate with someone else without leaving a specific location.

As an aside - There were a total of 21 engineers divided into 3 watch sections of 7 engineers each. They worked 4 hour on, 8 hour off. Each watch section had a 2nd Engineer in charge of the watch and the engine rooms, and an Assistant 2nd Engineer responsible for the boiler spaces. Of the remaining 5 engineers, their responsibilities were split between both engine rooms and the boiler rooms. See: http://www.stfaiths100.freeserve.co.uk/html_files/titanic1.htm) After the collision, it became an "all hands" situation for the engineers down there. That's why you read of Barrett having found Harvey and Wilson in BR No. 5 after he and Shepherd came back from their ill attempt to re-enter BR No. 6.​
 
Well, I allways here 'man at throttle'... Just to clear out this point for me, and maybe for us: For me the throttle is the main steam valve, the shutt-off point in the steam line from boiler to engines...
If you agree, then we maybe do something wrong, because in reciprocating engines we do not need to close the throttle before reversing. With a stephensone linkage, or a stephenson valve gear you left the throttle full open, thus full pressure is allways present at the engines, and engine is controlled by the linkage / gear, and not be throttle. Only if less power needed and lowest linkage adjustment still delivers to much power, the engineer will throttle, resulting in a reduced pressure at the engine.
But if once order was given to steam on, the engineers open the throttle, and will controll the engine only by the linkage / gear.
And still in low power circumstances the throttle will not be closed, it will stand open, because to stop the engine, the engineer adjusts tthe linkage at mid possiotion, closing top and bottom valves and the engines pistons won't get steam anmore, even if full pressure is in the valve chests.

So in titanic, I realy do not knew if for full astern command it was need from going full ahead it was need to close the main valve/throttle first.... for the reciprocating engines it realy was not need.
Remember: If less power was need, as lowest linkage adjustment was able to perform, the throttle was 'throttled' but not closed!!!

So for me personally, I allways question: Is for Titanic really needed from full ahead to full astern to close the throttle/main valve? And if, why?
The recipropacting engines won't need that. the engineer adjusts the linkage to lowest power output, waintws till the revolutions drop below critical rounds and eve if it turns forward, he shifts the linkage to astern, immediately stopping engines turning moment, and bringing the engines to starting doing rounds astern, and beginning to increase quickly in power output...
If one has time, visit steam tugboats and watch how old engineers will switch the engines, for many museal engineers horrible, but in duty this was what those engines must take!
And large river steames still today were shifted from astern to ahead and back astern for docking manouvers, just be linkage/gear controls, and the throttle/main valves stays open. Only if docking is done, and bridge calls finished with engines, the throttle is closed.
In start, at the river steamers the bridge calls attention, and the enginiers opens the throttle little, pulls and pushes the linkage / gear to full ahead and full astern (this will do no visible motion) to do preheating of the cylinders and pistons, and sets the linkage to middle position awaiting orders.
If no order half ahead is recieved, the engineers sets linkage to full ahead, the engine starts immeditely to do revolutions, then the throttle, which was not full open wil now set to full open and then the engineer will reduce linkage setting closer to the middle position so give the right cut-off for 'half ahead' and adjust the engine to the desired revolutions... So usally he allways 'plays' a little bit with the linkage adjustment, which usualy is a large lever in titanic I guess a large steering wheel, just to hold the desired revolutions in facts it will allways be little lower or little higher acordingly to the water outside, once needing more power to 'cut' the propeller blades through the water, or less...
 
I never realized you don't have to close the throttle on a steam reciprocating engine before throwing the reverse linkage. That could make a substantial difference in things.
I do not believe the engineers were ready for maneuvering bells that night,and that would slow things down. But what Steffen says could speed then up.
Regards,
Charlie
 
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