When the stern rose for the second time, did people have enough time to decide to jump before the angle got too severe?

drtheglob

Member
Did most of them realize it would go up on that crazy angle? Were most caught off guard? If they decided to jump, how difficult was it to find a suitable jump point?

Probably a lot of speculation here, but I was just wondering if people could provide some relevant insights.
 
At 2:16 AM, the Titanic had reached a low angle, likely around 12 degrees, and the structural integrity of the ship was beginning to fail in earnest. At this point, the decks were becoming nearly impossible to stand on without clinging to something, and the stresses on the keel and the joints between the bow and stern sections were reaching their limits. The ship, which had already been groaning and creaking under the strain, must have been a cacophony of snapping metal, rushing water, and human panic. By 2:18 AM, this tension culminated in the final, catastrophic failure: the bow and stern sections of the ship separated, with the bow plunging downward into the depths and the stern momentarily lifting higher before it began its own descent.

It’s reasonable to conclude that after the separation, the stern section had less than 90 seconds afloat. Survivors’ accounts and analyses, like those of Dillon, suggest there were still people aboard during this final phase. Dillon’s testimony about at least fifteen individuals remaining as the stern began to sink seems plausible, especially if we also consider that there may have been upwards of fifty people shortly before the ultimate break. The chaos and noise of the breakup likely drove many to make the desperate choice to jump into the frigid waters, as remaining aboard a sinking, splintering structure offered little hope of survival.

Now, whether the majority of those aboard the stern understood the extreme angle it would reach or the imminence of its sinking is a matter of conjecture. It’s likely that panic and confusion dominated in those final moments. Some may have been caught off guard by how rapidly the stern lifted and then began to plunge, while others might have decided earlier that remaining aboard was a death sentence and made their move to the water preemptively.

For those who decided to jump, finding a suitable jumping point would have been a challenge in itself. The deck would have been chaotic, crowded with people clinging to railings or each other, and the ship’s severe angle would have made navigation nearly impossible. Moreover, there was the danger of landing too close to the ship and being pulled under by suction or struck by debris. Survivors recount the eerie mix of silence and human screams that followed the breakup, which hints at how many people were caught off guard or simply didn’t survive the act of entering the water.

Speculation is unavoidable here, but it’s safe to assume that in those final moments, decisions were made under the most unimaginable pressure and fear. Jumping into freezing water was a horrific prospect, but compared to staying aboard a sinking, tilting, and groaning structure on the verge of collapse, it might have seemed like the only option.
 
Well put Luca. Good post.

At 2:16 AM, the Titanic had reached a low angle, likely around 12 degrees, and the structural integrity of the ship was beginning to fail in earnest. At this point, the decks were becoming nearly impossible to stand on without clinging to something, and the stresses on the keel and the joints between the bow and stern sections were reaching their limits. The ship, which had already been groaning and creaking under the strain, must have been a cacophony of snapping metal, rushing water, and human panic. By 2:18 AM, this tension culminated in the final, catastrophic failure: the bow and stern sections of the ship separated, with the bow plunging downward into the depths and the stern momentarily lifting higher before it began its own descent.
Yes. I fully believe what @Samuel Halpern said about the break-up in his "why the low angle break?" chapter and the graph in his book clearly illustrates that the stresses on the keel were maximum when the rising stern reached an angle of 12-degrees. The actual break-up must have started at that point, but it would have taken several minutes for the structural failure to progress to the extent that the keel and deck plates ripped apart. During that time, the bow would have continued to dip rather rapidly with the result that even with the strucural integrity failing, the stern would have continued to rise. IMO, the visible final break-up of the Titanic, as reported by many survivors, occurred between 02:18 and 02:19 am with the stern by then at around 25 degrees.

It’s reasonable to conclude that after the separation, the stern section had less than 90 seconds afloat.
I fully agree. One of the few things that I disagree with the view of certain experts (even though I accept most of their other analyses) is their impressions of the final plunge and break-up. Some believe that the final separation of the bow and the stern happened as early as 02:17am and the stern section then remained afloat for 3 to 4 minutes; I do not believe that myself. I accept the analysis by @Samuel Halpern on the break-up and agree with you that after the bow and stern separated, the latter reamined afloat for less than 90 seconds. But to observers from lifeboats nearby, those event-filled final catastrophic moments would have seemed considerably longer.

Jumping into freezing water was a horrific prospect, but compared to staying aboard a sinking, tilting, and groaning structure on the verge of collapse, it might have seemed like the only option. The chaos and noise of the breakup likely drove many to make the desperate choice to jump into the frigid waters, as remaining aboard a sinking, splintering structure offered little hope of survival.
Absolutely true and a lot of people would have been thus caught between the proverbial Devil and the Deep Sea. They would have known that clinging to the breaking structure would have been almost hopeless for survival but at the same time, would have been too scared of jumping into the freezing water and the prospect of a difficult swim to a nearby lifeboat. For the many clinging to the stern, that fear would have got worse as the stern rose higher, making decisions even more difficult. In the final minute or two, many who fell or jumped could also have been injured, maybe badly, by the jagged broken structures of the ship of even debris in the water.
 
My sense is that as soon as the now-broken off stern started to rise back up again, everyone would have attempted to find a jump point. Some may have been paralyzed by fear, but the freezing water, however perilous, offered more predictability and certainty than a failing and titling ship. I could be wrong but I think even a panicked mind would eventually make that calculation.

However, making the decision to jump and executing are two different things. It was dark and people would have to navigate through a maze of people and structural/ship equipment. Their balance would be off because of the rising angle. If you didn't make it to the side of the ship within like 30 seconds after the break up, I would think it would be near impossible to jump off the side and survive. Your only option past that point would be to hold on until the stern lowers all the way down.

I'm not sure how many were on the stern after the breakup. But I suspect most who were either fell or were forced to make a desperation jump that was either too high up or there were parts of the ship that they would smack into mid jump. Also, with that many people jumping, chances were high that you'd land on them if you jumped.

I think there was one survivor account where the survivor claims that at one point after the break up, people started jumping or falling in by the hundreds. I doubt most of them were able to position themselves to make a survivable jump. Most eventually died anyway, but I wonder how many even executed a jump and survived the jump.

The movie kind of makes it seem like people were jumping or falling only every so often. It never really depicts a mass jumping/falling situation.
 
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I'm not sure how many were on the stern after the breakup. But I suspect most who were either fell or were forced to make a desperation jump that was either too high up or there were parts of the ship that they would smack into mid jump. Also, with that many people jumping, chances were high that you'd land on them if you jumped.
Which is what makes me wonder about Chief Baker Joughin's survival story. Of course, I have never believed most of it since I knew that things like "swimming for hours" were impossible, but in the past I felt that there could have been elements of truth in how he hung on at the stern as it descended into its final plunge. But conisdering that after the break-up the separated stern section was rising and swinging as it flooded rapidly, hanging on at the very end would have been almost impossible. Therefore I wonder if Joughin, who had probably gone to the pantry for a glass of water just before the break-up, simply jumped into the sea from some point just aft of the flooding bridge on the port side and swam away as the Titanic sank. That way he would not have been far from the overturned Collapsible B on top of which he was helped on to by cook Maynard and probably a couple of others. Later he made-up a fantastic story about hanging on to the very end of the stern section as it sank, letting go just as he reached the water.
 
Later he made-up a fantastic story about hanging on to the very end of the stern section as it sank, letting go just as he reached the water.
That I find that hanging onto very end is quite believable over jumping into the blackness that awaited below. The surprise, if there was one, would be the lack of a significant suction that many in the boats were terrified of.
 
That I find that hanging onto very end is quite believable over jumping into the blackness that awaited below. The surprise, if there was one, would be the lack of a significant suction that many in the boats were terrified of.

Jumping with a lifebelt on would have been an invitation to a hangman's fracture, which I suspect was understood by this time by anybody who made their living at sea. I wouldn't want to do it and I was trained not to.
 
Understood. I remembered that it has been mentioned before that with the stiff life vests of the day, jumping from a height wearing them could have caused serious injury, including a broken neck. I wonder if many who jumped or fell off the rising stern after the break-up did break their necks when they hit the water.

About Joughin, I wondered if he simply went towards the sinking bow end and jumped when he was very close to the water just before the break-up or was washed overboard by the 'wave'; people like George Rheims, Peter Daly, Richard Williams, Carl Jansson, Jack Thayer etc might have survived in that manner.
 
Understood. I remembered that it has been mentioned before that with the stiff life vests of the day, jumping from a height wearing them could have caused serious injury, including a broken neck. I wonder if many who jumped or fell off the rising stern after the break-up did break their necks when they hit the water.

About Joughin, I wondered if he simply went towards the sinking bow end and jumped when he was very close to the water just before the break-up or was washed overboard by the 'wave'; people like George Rheims, Peter Daly, Richard Williams, Carl Jansson, Jack Thayer etc might have survived in that manner.

The legend has Joughin getting rip roaring drunk (Which he denied!) and that when the ship went down, he didn't even get his hair wet.

When you get down to the brass tacks, it all strains credibility. Alcohol is a vasodilator so it actually speeds up body heat loss. You may not care, but you freeze to death faster.

The not getting his hair wet part...eh...it's unlikely but if the stern settled gently enough, it's not impossible.
 
Alcohol is a vasodilator so it actually speeds up body heat loss. You may not care, but you freeze to death faster.
Exactly. Despite this common knowledge that the "warmth" caused by alcohol is due to divertion of blood to the skin at the expense of vital organs like brain, heart and kidneys, you can still see nonsense on the web about how Joughin survived the freezing sea for 'several hours' because he was drunk. That kind of exposure while inebriated is certain to accelerate onset of stupor and unconciousness in the first place due to blood supply to the brain being compromised. With that, the person stops swimming or otherwise moving and even if he/she is wearing a life vest, fatal hypothermia will follow quickly.

IMO Joughin either jumped from a very short height as the bow dipped rapidly in the final minutes or more likely was washed overboard by the 'wave' like many other survivors. Either way, he swam to the nearby overturned Collapsible B and was hauled on board. That's all.
 
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