Who was in Cabin B-78?

[Arun Vajpey]

Henry Samuel ETCHES testified that after he had sorted Guggenheim and his valet out, he went and banged on the door of First Class Cabin B-78 (Some sources sat that it was C-78). A man and a woman were inside but did not open the door; instead, they reportedly kept asking Etches what was wrong etc. In the end, Etches got exasperated and went away "leaving the couple to their fate".

Any idea who they were (or might have been) and what happened to them?

 

[Arun Vajpey]

Looking further into this, Cabin C-78 was allocated to the Minahan family and so the sources that say that it was this cabin that Etches knocked on (including in his biography here) are probably in error. Therefore, it must have been B-78. Although Etches testified that The Spencer couple occupied B-78, the Cave List has that couple in B-76 and their maid in B-80. William Spencer died in the sinking while his wife Eugenie survived.
It seems highly unlikely that the middle aged Spencers were the couple that refused to let Etches in. This might mean that they were really in B-76 as per the Cave List.
So who was in B-78 and what happened to them?

 

[Arun Vajpey]

I have checked this enigma as much as possible and based on what I could learn and there are some relevant points that I collated:

• Steward Samuel Etches testified that sometime after the collision, he was mustering passengers in his charge and in doing so, repeatedly knocked on "Cabin 78", a First Class room. There seemed to be an unnamed couple inside and first the man and then the woman kept asking Etches what the matter was but despite his repeated requests to do so, did not open the door. Etches did not specify the deck of that cabin but subsequently it has been postulated as both Cabin B78 and C78.
• Etches was in charge of some First Class cabins on B-deck, including Cabins B82 and B84 in which Benjamin Guggenheim and his valet Victor Giglio were staying. Etches clearly testified that he helped both those gentlemen with their life jackets and then advised them to go to the boat deck. He then walked down the corridor to "Cabin 78" (as above) and Guggenheim and Giglio followed him and stood by while Etches tried his knocking. Neither Guggenheim nor Giglio survived but of course, Etches did.
• According to the passenger manifest (?) and ET, Mr William Spencer and his wife Marie Eugenie occupied Cabin B78 and the maid was in Cabin B80. Mr Spencer was lost but his wife survived with the maid; Mrs Spencer was not called to testify, but AFAIK she never made any mention of a steward banging on their cabin door after the collision. Mrs Spencer and her maid were rescued on Lifeboat #6 that was lowered at 01:10 am.
• The Minahan family - Dr William Minahan, his wife Lilian and sister Daisy - occupied First Class Cabin C78. Dr Minahan was lost but the two women survived. Daisy Minahan submitted an affidavit to the American Inquiry where she not only confirmed their cabin number but the fact that she woke her sleeping brother and sister-in-law soon after the collision. Soon afterwards an officer came in and ordered them to wear life jackets and get onto the boat deck. Daisy hinted that they spent quite sometime there and the two women managed to get into a port lifeboat at their third attempt. They were rescued on Lifeboat #14, lowered at 01:25 am.
• Contrary to the manifest, the passenger list found on the body of Titanic victim Saloon Steward Herbert Cave - the so-called Cave List - places the Spencer couple in Cabin B76 and the maid in B80 with Cabin B78 actually unoccupied.

Based on the above information I drew a few conclusions:

1. The "Cabin 78" on the door of which Etches repeatedly knocked but could not get the occupants to open was definitely B78 and not C78 like some works suggest. Apart from the fact that a known surviving occupant of C78, Daisy Minahan, made no mention of the Etches incident in her Affidavit, Etches was responsible for some cabins on B-deck and not C-deck. Also, after donning life vests and told to go onto the boat deck, why would Guggenheim and Giglio follow Etches to the door of "Cabin 78" unless it was just down the corridor and on their way to the boat deck? So, it definitely was the door of Cabin B78 on which Etches knocked repeatedly but could not get the occupants to open.
2. After 5 days of servicing that row of First Class cabins and their occupants, Etches would have known where the Spencer couple was staying. Had it been B78 and they had refused to open the door, he would have said so in his testimony. I therefore conclude that the Cave List was correct and the Spencers were actually in Cabin B76.
3. Although he does not specify the time, I calculated that it must have been between 12:25 and 12:30 am when the knocking incident took place. After failing to get the occupants to open that door, Etches almost certainly went to the boat deck, followed by Guggenheim and Giglio. Etches then helped with the loading of Lifeboat #5 and was himself ordered into it; the boat was lowered between 12:45 and 12:50 am. Guggenheim and Giglio elected to remain on the ship and 'went down like gentlemen'.
4. Going by the same timeline, by 12:25 am the Spencers would have known that the ship was in danger and would not have asked Etches what the matter was through the closed door when he knocked. Considering that they got ready, wore life vests and went up to the boat deck where Eugenie spencer was eventually rescued on Lifeboat #6 lowered at 01:10 hours, suggests early awareness of the situation. Another reason why I believe that they were in Cabin B76 as per the Cave List and were not the people who spoke to Etches through the closed door.

So, who really was in Cabin B78 and refused to open the door? If the Cave List is correct - and I believe that it is - it would not be the Spencer couple who were in Cabin B76 and probably left for the boat deck by then. But that would have left Cabin B78 unoccupied, something that Etches would have known as he was servicing that row of rooms. But he still knocked on the closed door and got a verbal response without the door being opened. To me that suggests that the couple were meeting there clandestinely and Etches had helped them with this tryst (with an incentive, of course) and that is why he knew that there was a couple in the 'unoccupied' cabin. If the unknown couple did not want their nocturnal meeting made public, it would explain their reluctance to open the door. That probably is also the reason that Etches was vague in his testimony - quoting 'Cabin 78' without the deck prefix.

 

[Thomas Krom]

Good day to you Dr. Vajpey,

I want to add that Mr. Guggenheim didn’t occupy B-82 (fitted out in the Louis XV style with beautifully carved oak panelling painted grey), he and his manservant/valet only occupied B-84 together (fitted out in Harland and Wolff bedroom B style with brass beds).

Mr. Etches was assigned to 8 staterooms, 1 stateroom on A-deck and 8 on B-deck:

A-deck

Cabin number	Occupant	Period style
A-36	Mr. Thomas Andrews Jr	Harland and Wolff bedroom B style (with light oak beds)

B-deck

B-84	Mr. Benjamin Guggenheim and his manservant/valet Mr. Victor Gaitan Andrea Giglio	Harland and Wolff bedroom B style (with brass beds)
B-86	Mr. Alexander Milne Cairns	Standard stateroom
B-88	Unoccupied	Harland and Wolff bedroom A style
B-90	Unoccupied	Harland and Wolff bedroom B style (with brass beds)
B-92	Unoccupied	Standard stateroom
B-94	Mr. William Henry Harrison (Mr. Ismay his secretary, not to be confused with the 9th president of the United States)	Harland and Wolff bedroom B style (with mahogany beds)
B-96	Mr. William Ernest Carter and his wife Mrs. Lucile Carter	Harland and Wolff bedroom B style (with mahogany beds)
B-98	Miss Lucile Polk Carter and her brother Master William Thornton Carter II	Harland and Wolff bedroom B style (with mahogany beds)

The argument that the Spencer’s were in B-78 is that their maid, Miss Eugénie Elise Lurette, was in B-80 but I believe that that is quite an invalid statement. B-80 was the nearest standard stateroom (which was designed to occupy a servant nearby) among with B-74 since a private bath and lavatory was located there instead. The only possible explanation IF they occupied B-78 is that they transferred from B-76 to B-78 but sadly we can only speculate who the occupants were for the time being.

I hope this might gives slightly more insight on the matter.

Yours sincerely,

Thomas

 

[Arun Vajpey]

The only possible explanation IF they occupied B-78 is that they transferred from B-76 to B-78 but sadly we can only speculate who the occupants were for the time being.

Possible, but IMO it is more likely to have been the other way around ie, they were assigned cabin B78 but for some reason transferred to B76. I believe that Etches would have known well who was in which cabin in that B-row after 5 days and which were unoccupied. Since it is more or less certain that the cabin door on which he repeatedly knocked but was unable to persuade the occupants to open it was B78, we can be sure it was not the spencers inside. Had that cabin been occupied by the Spencers, Etches would have known it and said so at the Inquiry. Moreover, considering that Mrs Spencer was rescued on Lifeboat #6, it makes it highly unlikely that either she or her husband would ask such questions through a closed door when Etches knocked.

If B78 was officially unoccupied during the voyage, Etches would have known it being in charge of that and others in the vicinity but not many others if the Spencers had changed to B76. In that case, B78 would have been ideal for an unknown First Class man and woman to meet for 'nocturnal activities'. Of course they would have needed Etches' co-operation, which was probably easily obtained through the usual 'incentive'. That would explain both the reason why Etches knocked on the door of a cabin not officially occupied as well as the reluctance of the couple inside to open the door. The fact that Etches mentioned the knocking incident but was rather vague about it suggests that at least one of them - most likely the man - did not survive and Etches of course would not have embarrassed the surviving woman.

I know that this is a lot of speculation but in light of what Etches testified, is one possible explanation that ticks all the boxes.

 

[Thomas Krom]

As I mentioned before, Mr. Etches wasn't looking after the passengers in B-78, he only looked after the earlier mentioned staterooms during the West and Eastbound voyage of the Titanic (the later of which never happened). I am not stating that B-78 wasn't occupied with my earlier statement, I am only stating that Mr. Etches didn't looked after B-78. Who the bedroom steward was who looked after B-78 also would have looked after B-76 and by the looks of things he sadly didn't survive the sinking.

 

[Arun Vajpey]

As I mentioned before, Mr. Etches wasn't looking after the passengers in B-78. Who the bedroom steward was who looked after B-78 also would have looked after B-76 and by the looks of things he sadly didn't survive the sinking

OK, thanks. That probably offers a simpler and more straightforward explanation of why Etches knocked on the door of B78 - he did not know who was in there. But I still don't believe that it was the Spencer couple because of the questions they asked without opening the door and the fact that Mrs Spencer was rescued on Lifeboat #6.

The difficulty here is that B78 was a First Class cabin and one of the occupants was a woman. Since only 4 adult First class women were lost - Bess Allison, Edith Evans, Ann Isham and Ida Strauss - the identity of the woman in B78 is a mystery. I don't believe it was Mrs Spencer but another who survived.

 

[Thomas Krom]

The four earlier mentioned women, as you already know, couldn't occupy occupy B-78. Mrs. Allison was on C-deck (C-22, C-24 and C-26), Miss Evans was on A-deck (A-29), Miss Isham was on C-deck as well (C-49) and Mrs. Straus was on C-deck too (C-55 in Regency style and C-57 in Empire style with gilted panneling and mahogany beds). I believe I might have a few possible people who could have been them (all of these people have unknown staterooms):
George Rosenshine with his lover Gertrude Maybelle Thorne, they paid between £79 4d to £80 4d for their stateroom.
Edgar Joseph Meyer and his wife Leila Meyer, they paid £82 3s 5d for their stateroom.

 

[Arun Vajpey]

The four earlier mentioned women, as you already know, couldn't occupy occupy B-78.

Of course. That's what I meant. In fact, I believe that the woman in B78 survived but we may never know her identity; of course, she would not have volunteered herself. Less certain what happened to the man.

Considering that Etches left that scene around 12:30 am and was himself in Lifeboat #5 only 20 minutes later, there was plenty of time for the people in B78 to come out, go to the boat deck and disperse among rest of the crowd.

I believe that the Spencer couple were in B76 as per the Cave List.

 

[Arun Vajpey]

I personally believe that the occupants of B-78 were Edgar Joseph Meyer and his wife Leila Meyer.

(Sorry, I shifted your quote to this more relevant thread and noted that we have discussed this before!)

May I ask what makes you think that? Of course, the Meyer's cabin allocation is also not certain. I accept that it was possible, but if, as I believe, the Spencers asked to change their cabin after coming on board with the Titanic, which would only have been possible if one of them, B-76 or B78, was unoccupied at the time. As fellow First Class passengers, the Meyers would have also had cabins allocated to them.

Of course, one can speculate that the two couples, both from New York and both boarding in Cherbourg, could have simply exchanged their cabins for mutual convenience. But I thought that sort of thing was uncommon in stuffy upper-circles of those days, specially with the Meyers being a whole generation younger than the Spencers. Also, as far I can see from BB's deckplans, B-76 and B-78 are similar in terms of amenities (but might have differed in style).

I have doubts about B-78 being occupied by the Meyers for other reasons.

After he had seen to Guggenheim and Giglio, I made it that it was around 12:30 am that Etches banged on the door of B-78 calling out to its occupants. Allowing some 2 minutes for that strange exchange (which he would have had absolutely no reason to make-up), Etches would have just had enough time to do the few other things he said, including going to the boat deck to help with the completion of loading Lifeboat #7 (where I think he reported seeing McElroy) and then on to help with Lifeboat #5, into which he was ordered by Murdoch as it was lowered at 12:48 am or so. Comparing this with Leila Meyer's later account of her final parting from husband Edgar Meyer, it seems that they were near Lifeboat #6 well on time and she rescued on it as it lowered at 01:10 am. I would have thought for a couple to be asking rather silly questions of their steward through a locked door at 12:30 am to then dress warmly, put on life vests and arrive on the boat deck in less than 30 minutes seems unlikely; possible, but IMO it does not fit. More than anything else, they were a 'proper' married couple and so why the hesitancy in opening the door to urgent banging and calling out? Or the reason for Leila Meyer not mentioning the incident later?

Also, even if Etches was not actually serving B-76 or B-78, working in the vicinity for 4 days (since Cherbourg), he would have known from his colleague who the occupants were and would have said so at the inquiry.

 

[Thomas Krom]

May I ask what makes you think that?

The Meyer's paid 82 Pounds, 3 Shillings and 5 pennies for their ticket. Meaning they occupied a special stateroom amidships on either B or C-deck since if two passengers would pay to share a standard stateroom they would pay about 50 pounds.

I believe, the Spencers asked to change their cabin after coming on board with the Titanic

Etches however made a statement against that they moved to B-78 in mentioning the following:

Senator SMITH.
Was he there?
Mr. ETCHES.
Yes; he followed me along. I then found No. 78 cabin door shut, and I banged with both hands on the door loudly, and a voice answered, "What is it"? Then a lady's voice said, "Tell me what the trouble is." I said, "It is necessary that you should open the door, and I will explain everything, but please put the lifebelts on or bring them in the corridor." They said, "I want to know what is the matter." I said, "Kindly open the door," and I still kept banging. I passed along, and I found one cabin was empty, and then I came to another cabin and a lady and a gentleman stood at the door. They were swinging a lifebelt in their hands.

This "another cabin" if you follow the path is B-76 after he moved away from B-78, with the empty cabin being the standard stateroom B-80. Meaning that this couple at the door were most likely the Spencers.

B-76 and B-78 are similar in terms of amenities (but might have differed in style).

They had a different style to be exact. Allow me to show you a render of both rooms as recreated by a friend of mine (GraceDudleyWard)

B-76 in the Harland and Wolff bedroom A style, more commonly known as the French style.

B-78 in the Harland and Wolff bedroom B style, more commonly known as the Modern style. This variant has oak beds and furniture.

After he had seen to Guggenheim and Giglio, I made it that it was around 12:30 am that Etches banged on the door of B-78 calling out to its occupants. Allowing some 2 minutes for that strange exchange (which he would have had absolutely no reason to make-up), Etches would have just had enough time to do the few other things he said, including going to the boat deck to help with the completion of loading Lifeboat #7 (where I think he reported seeing McElroy) and then on to help with Lifeboat #5, into which he was ordered by Murdoch as it was lowered at 12:48 am or so. Comparing this with Leila Meyer's later account of her final parting from husband Edgar Meyer, it seems that they were near Lifeboat #6 well on time and she rescued on it as it lowered at 01:10 am. I would have thought for a couple to be asking rather silly questions of their steward through a locked door at 12:30 am to then dress warmly, put on life vests and arrive on the boat deck in less than 30 minutes seems unlikely; possible, but IMO it does not fit. More than anything else, they were a 'proper' married couple and so why the hesitancy in opening the door to urgent banging and calling out? Or the reason for Leila Meyer not mentioning the incident later?

I would agree that there are holes in the claim. However the Meyer's aren't however the only two people who could have occupied B-78, George Rosenshine and his mistress Gertrude Maybelle Thorne are also a possibility based on the price they paid.

Also, even if Etches was not actually serving B-76 or B-78, working in the vicinity for 4 days (since Cherbourg), he would have known from his colleague who the occupants were and would have said so at the inquiry.

He said he only know a bit about them at the inquiry.

 

[Arun Vajpey]

Mr. ETCHES.
Yes; he followed me along. I then found No. 78 cabin door shut, and I banged with both hands on the door loudly, and a voice answered, "What is it"? Then a lady's voice said, "Tell me what the trouble is." I said, "It is necessary that you should open the door, and I will explain everything, but please put the lifebelts on or bring them in the corridor." They said, "I want to know what is the matter." I said, "Kindly open the door," and I still kept banging. I passed along, and I found one cabin was empty, and then I came to another cabin and a lady and a gentleman stood at the door. They were swinging a lifebelt in their hands.

This "another cabin" if you follow the path is B-76 after he moved away from B-78, with the empty cabin being the standard stateroom B-80. Meaning that this couple at the door were most likely the Spencers.

The "he" in that statement above is, of course, Benjamin Guggenheim. Since his cabin was B-82 and was following Etches briefly, then they would come to B-78 first (with the infamous unknown couple incident) and then to B-76, in front of which stood the aforementioned "lady and gentleman". That comment definitely suggests that they were the Spencers and were in B-76 and about to go up on to the boat deck as ordered.

B-76 in the Harland and Wolff bedroom A style, more commonly known as the French style.

That's very interesting. IF the Spencers had been originally allocated "modern" B-78 and they saw that the very next one was in the French style and unallocated, it might have appealed to the French opera singer Marie Eugenie Spencer. Simple enough swap.

But why did the Spencers have to pay £146 and a bit for their cabin plus maid Eugenie Laurette's smaller, windowless/port hole-less B-80? The latter room must have been cheaper and so I would have expected the total to be somewhere in the £110 mark max.

 

[Thomas Krom]

But why did the Spencers have to pay £146 and a bit for their cabin plus maid Eugenie Laurette's smaller, windowless/port hole-less B-80? The latter room must have been cheaper and so I would have expected the total to be somewhere in the £110 mark max.

They most likely paid an extra fee for both a private lavatory and bathroom and dining arrangements in the first class dining saloon. B-80 would have costed about 25 to 30 Pounds.

Since his cabib was B-82

Mr. Guggenheim occupied B-84 (in the Harland and Wolff bedroom B style with brass beds) with Mr. Giglio, not B-82. This is shown on both the Cave list and as supported by Mr. Etches his account.

 

[Arun Vajpey]

Mr. Guggenheim occupied B-84 (in the Harland and Wolff bedroom B style with brass beds) with Mr. Giglio, not B-82. This is shown on both the Cave list and as supported by Mr. Etches his account.

OK, thanks. But the "direction of their walk" would still have been the same.