Alice Cleaver picture or photograph
- Thread starter Jeni
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The only pictures of her that I know about are those reproduced in "Titanic an Illustrated History", "Women and Children First" and "From Workhouse to prison..." I don't have my own copies of those pictures nor permission to reproduce them. The family with whom I have been in contact have not offered to provide an alternative picture.
Phil
Phil
Katie Sharrocks
Guest
She was meant to be quite unattractive so the newspapers altered her photographs.
Robin Bradford
Guest
Is there any evidence that Ms. Clever told the Allison's that she was taking Trevor to one of the lifeboats? I find it horrifying that Ms. Clever would just walk out of the adjoining rooms and to enter a lifeboat without the Allison's knowledge. I know Mr. Allison was away, and Ms. Allison was in a state of utter panic, but it seems that Ms. Clever would have stated what she had intended to do. I have read somewhere that she was eccentric and that they hired her at the last moment without checking her background. Is this correct? In any case I think that little Loraine should have been placed in one of the boats by the Allison's. That was a very sad ending to that family.
Adrianne Lapar
Member
Robin,
Yes, it is, indeed, quite sad what happened to the Allison family.
In reply to your question about Ms. Cleaver being eccentric and being hired at the last minute, it is the truth. According to "Titanic: An Illustrated History", the Allisons' trained nurse had quit a few weeks before their departure, so they hired Ms. Cleaver hastily, not knowing that 3 years earlier she had murdered her own baby son.
Mr. Allison had left his stateroom to check the ship's conditions when Ms. Cleaver left with Trevor. Also according to "Titanic: An Illustrated History", Mrs. Allison was hysterical and the children were sleeping. Ms. Cleaver began to fear for her own life, so she took Trevor, pledged never to let him out of her sight, and fled.
I hope this is of some help.
While we're on the topic of the Allisons, does anyone know the details behind Trevor's death? According to E-T, he was poisoned. Was it murder or suicide or just a mistake? Anyone know anything about it?
ADRIANNE
Yes, it is, indeed, quite sad what happened to the Allison family.
In reply to your question about Ms. Cleaver being eccentric and being hired at the last minute, it is the truth. According to "Titanic: An Illustrated History", the Allisons' trained nurse had quit a few weeks before their departure, so they hired Ms. Cleaver hastily, not knowing that 3 years earlier she had murdered her own baby son.
Mr. Allison had left his stateroom to check the ship's conditions when Ms. Cleaver left with Trevor. Also according to "Titanic: An Illustrated History", Mrs. Allison was hysterical and the children were sleeping. Ms. Cleaver began to fear for her own life, so she took Trevor, pledged never to let him out of her sight, and fled.
I hope this is of some help.
While we're on the topic of the Allisons, does anyone know the details behind Trevor's death? According to E-T, he was poisoned. Was it murder or suicide or just a mistake? Anyone know anything about it?
ADRIANNE
Phillip Gowan
RIP
The Allison's nurse was Alice Catherine Cleaver (later Mrs. Williams). She was not a child-murderer--but was confused with a woman named Alice Mary Cleaver who did not sail on Titanic (was in jail at the time for the murder) and would later die (in 1915) of Tuberculosis. The Allison's nurse lived to be 95 years old, dying in 1984 in Winchester, UK.
Trevor Allison died of ptomaine poisoning (accidental). He became ill in Franklin, Massachusetts and went to the home of relatives in Maine where he died.
Phillip
Trevor Allison died of ptomaine poisoning (accidental). He became ill in Franklin, Massachusetts and went to the home of relatives in Maine where he died.
Phillip
Phillip Gowan
RIP
Hi Ed,
No, there is no possibility of a connection and the mention of "Mrs. Gray" is only a coincidence. The child-murderer, Alice Mary Cleaver, and the nurse Alice Catherine Cleaver, were two very distinct individuals whose paths never crossed. Since it was Alice Mary Cleaver the murderer who mentioned Mrs. Gray, the "real" Alice could not have known about it.
If you're interested there is a well-documented book now available on the two Alice Cleavers which in my opinion has laid the matter to rest once and for all. Unfortunately, the original association of the child murderer with the nurse has taken on a life of its own and will crop up forever like the mummy story.
Regards,
Phillip
No, there is no possibility of a connection and the mention of "Mrs. Gray" is only a coincidence. The child-murderer, Alice Mary Cleaver, and the nurse Alice Catherine Cleaver, were two very distinct individuals whose paths never crossed. Since it was Alice Mary Cleaver the murderer who mentioned Mrs. Gray, the "real" Alice could not have known about it.
If you're interested there is a well-documented book now available on the two Alice Cleavers which in my opinion has laid the matter to rest once and for all. Unfortunately, the original association of the child murderer with the nurse has taken on a life of its own and will crop up forever like the mummy story.
Regards,
Phillip
Jim Trebowski
Guest
Hi! I'm very interested in the Allison/Cleaver story. What is the name of the book that you mention above? By the way, I am in contact with a lady who says her Grandmother was Helen Lorraine Allison. I would like your views on this. She sent me a pic, and she is the spitting image of Hud.
Phillip Gowan
RIP
Jim,
The Cleaver book is "From Workhouse to Prison to the Titanic?"--I ordered it through one of the on-line booksellers, can't remember which.
The Helen Lorraine Allison thing keeps popping up but no one ever provides details. The girl you are speaking of has left messages on ET before and I've asked her for details about her grandmother--If she would ever provide what I've asked for I could, in short, lay the matter to rest. But curiously, she never has responded to my requests. I think hers is a story she wishes were true but would not stand up to the scrutiny of any solid investigation.
Phillip
The Cleaver book is "From Workhouse to Prison to the Titanic?"--I ordered it through one of the on-line booksellers, can't remember which.
The Helen Lorraine Allison thing keeps popping up but no one ever provides details. The girl you are speaking of has left messages on ET before and I've asked her for details about her grandmother--If she would ever provide what I've asked for I could, in short, lay the matter to rest. But curiously, she never has responded to my requests. I think hers is a story she wishes were true but would not stand up to the scrutiny of any solid investigation.
Phillip
Jim Kalafus
Member
Phillip: Is that the same Lorraine Allison who claimed that she and Thomas Andrews were saved from the disaster, kept under wraps, and spirited away to begin life anew in Canada? I remember the rationale for hiding Andrews away, but don't recall why it was so important for the White Star Line to conceal Lorraine's survival. Whatever the reason, that was one bizarre tale.
Phillip Gowan
RIP
Honestly James, I can't remember which one she told. One story had Capt. Smith surviving and saving her.
Several times I've seen it alleged that a book is about to be published that will "tell the story." I've anxiously awaited the opportunity to see what it had to say--I intend to dissect the claims a la "The Illegitimate Daughter of Archibald Butt"--but the book never seems to materialize.
Fortunately, people who live a long time, as did Lorraine Kramer, leave many document trails to follow and in 2001 frauds are easy to expose. In this case--and others I've encountered, the descendants truly believe the tales they've been told and don't want to deal with the possibility that people they loved really lied to them. Of course, when the original tales were told, there wasn't an Internet, few or no resources existed to check facts and those telling the tales thought they could never be proven false. Not long ago I came across a "biography" of Lillian Minahan--easily disproven---a young man telling the story of his grandmother who had survived Titanic and lived to be 104. The woman in question really did have the same full maiden name as Mrs. Minahan--making it even more convenient to make the claim. Very sad for her grandson (who believed her) to have to come to the realization that everything he had been told was false. I think the old Biblical adage from the Book of Numbers says "...and be sure, thy sins shall find thee out."
Several times I've seen it alleged that a book is about to be published that will "tell the story." I've anxiously awaited the opportunity to see what it had to say--I intend to dissect the claims a la "The Illegitimate Daughter of Archibald Butt"--but the book never seems to materialize.
Fortunately, people who live a long time, as did Lorraine Kramer, leave many document trails to follow and in 2001 frauds are easy to expose. In this case--and others I've encountered, the descendants truly believe the tales they've been told and don't want to deal with the possibility that people they loved really lied to them. Of course, when the original tales were told, there wasn't an Internet, few or no resources existed to check facts and those telling the tales thought they could never be proven false. Not long ago I came across a "biography" of Lillian Minahan--easily disproven---a young man telling the story of his grandmother who had survived Titanic and lived to be 104. The woman in question really did have the same full maiden name as Mrs. Minahan--making it even more convenient to make the claim. Very sad for her grandson (who believed her) to have to come to the realization that everything he had been told was false. I think the old Biblical adage from the Book of Numbers says "...and be sure, thy sins shall find thee out."
Jim Kalafus
Member
So Captain Smith and Thomas Andrew survived, and were spirited away to a new life with Lorraine Allison! Seems logical enough. Of course, that would require (life long) silence on the part of every last person in the lifeboat(s) that they were saved in, PLUS the Carpathia crew and passengers AND innumerable people in the shore offices of Cunard and White Star to even stand a chance of working, but why not? Call it a hunch, but having been published already, I have a feeling that this tale is going to be around a la Anna Anderson for as long as any interest remains in Titanic, no matter how often or how well it is debunked. I WOULD like to hear why "the powers that be" thought abducting Lorraine Allison would be a good idea.
Shelley Dziedzic
Member
Anna Anderson- now THERE'S a story. I was delighted that DNA triumphed in the end and those miserable bones were not royal- had always smelled a rat even though Ingrid Bergman and Helen Hayes gave a moving performance in the film version. I'll bet your would-be Pretenders fade away Phil because it is nearly impossible to fake the science these days when put to the test.
Jim Kalafus
Member
Possibly- but don't forget that those people are GREAT at sidestepping the unquestionable truth when confronted with it by adding new and stupid details to the story: "Lorraine Allison's" DNA doesn't match that of Bess Allison? SIMPLE- Lorraine Allison, according to documents I found (but didn't photocopy and lost in a tragic oven fire some years back, but take my word on it they were The Real Thing) was the illegitimate daughter of Thomas Andrews and Florence Maybrick, being smuggled into the country by an unsuspecting Bess Allison, at the behest of none other than Queen Alexandra! That is why all three (Lorraine, Andrews and Smith) were so ably hidden all of those years.....and isn't it a shame that all of my evidence was lost!
Uhh...gee, I was making fun of that style of writer, and I think I just laid the groundwork for an entire inane video documentary and accompanying book.
Uhh...gee, I was making fun of that style of writer, and I think I just laid the groundwork for an entire inane video documentary and accompanying book.
