Why is Lightholler's account of leaving seen as questionable?

[SunnyDay]

Hi all

I'm loving this site and forum! I've read a few people saying Lighthollers account of leaving the ship on collapsible b is seen as questionable... why is it questionable? Is it not credible or just wrong or something?

 

[Arun Vajpey]

I don't believe there is anything wrong or even questionable in Lightoller's survival per se. As a human being, he had every right to save himself if he got the chance after Captain Smith gave the "Every Man for Himself" order. Lightoller left the ship after that order and took his chance when he got on board the overturned Collapsible B along with others. Just like Ismay - albeit under different personal circumstances - in saving himself Lightoller did not deprive anyone else of a place.

Having said that, I have mentioned my own personal opinion - and that only - that Lightoller subconsciously did not expect to go down with the ship. I am not saying that he had any specific plan in mind to save himself but IMO people like Lightoller and Lowe come across as those with a strong survival instinct. Nothing wrong in that; I suspect I have a similar instinct for survival myself.

What was really questionable were Lightoller's often vague, ambiguous and inconsistent statements during both official inquiries and thereafter, including in his biography. He gave the impression of being a good "company man" and making sure that he future career was not too adversely affected.

 

[Michael Shakesby]

Having said that, I have mentioned my own personal opinion - and that only - that Lightoller subconsciously did not expect to go down with the ship. I am not saying that he had any specific plan in mind to save himself but IMO people like Lightoller and Lowe come across as those with a strong survival instinct. Nothing wrong in that; I suspect I have a similar instinct for survival myself.

An intresting point you make there.

Lightoller had been wrecked before (twice if I remember) so maybe he had a subconscious reasoning that he would survive this one to. He did buck the idea of running aft like most and did indeed jump forward into the water. If I recall he said his idea at first was to swim to the crows nest as it was the first thing he saw, but abandoned the idea for obvious reasons.

The question I would of liked to ask of him would be... "Did you see boat B in the water and that was your target, or was your only goal to clear the ship?"

Either way he survied and I for one am glad he did.

All the best

Michael

 

[SunnyDay]

I don't believe there is anything wrong or even questionable in Lightoller's survival per se. As a human being, he had every right to save himself if he got the chance after Captain Smith gave the "Every Man for Himself" order. Lightoller left the ship after that order and took his chance when he got on board the overturned Collapsible B along with others. Just like Ismay - albeit under different personal circumstances - in saving himself Lightoller did not deprive anyone else of a place.

Having said that, I have mentioned my own personal opinion - and that only - that Lightoller subconsciously did not expect to go down with the ship. I am not saying that he had any specific plan in mind to save himself but IMO people like Lightoller and Lowe come across as those with a strong survival instinct. Nothing wrong in that; I suspect I have a similar instinct for survival myself.

What was really questionable were Lightoller's often vague, ambiguous and inconsistent statements during both official inquiries and thereafter, including in his biography. He gave the impression of being a good "company man" and making sure that he future career was not too adversely affected.

Yes I agree, and that's why I'm more interested in him than anyone else. He's a very morally grey character in some ways. My feeling is if he wasn't, everyone could have died on collapsible B... I'm not sure others would have had the stomach to beat people off. That will have been bloody and brutal and I've no doubt the beating people off account just scratches the surface.

I was wondering... did he lie about how he got off the ship? For example didn't go down with it, or beat up people that were in his way?

 

[SunnyDay]

I don't believe there is anything wrong or even questionable in Lightoller's survival per se. As a human being, he had every right to save himself if he got the chance after Captain Smith gave the "Every Man for Himself" order. Lightoller left the ship after that order and took his chance when he got on board the overturned Collapsible B along with others. Just like Ismay - albeit under different personal circumstances - in saving himself Lightoller did not deprive anyone else of a place.

Having said that, I have mentioned my own personal opinion - and that only - that Lightoller subconsciously did not expect to go down with the ship. I am not saying that he had any specific plan in mind to save himself but IMO people like Lightoller and Lowe come across as those with a strong survival instinct. Nothing wrong in that; I suspect I have a similar instinct for survival myself.

What was really questionable were Lightoller's often vague, ambiguous and inconsistent statements during both official inquiries and thereafter, including in his biography. He gave the impression of being a good "company man" and making sure that he future career was not too adversely affected.

Yes I agree, and that's why I'm more interested in him than anyone else. He's a very morally grey character in some ways. My feeling is if he wasn't, everyone could have died on collapsible B... I'm not sure others would have had the stomach to beat people off. That will have been bloody and brutal and I've no doubt the beating people off account just scratches the surface.

I was wondering... did he lie about how he got off the ship? For example didn't go down with it, or beat up people that were in his way

An intresting point you make there.

Lightoller had been wrecked before (twice if I remember) so maybe he had a subconscious reasoning that he would survive this one to. He did buck the idea of running aft like most and did indeed jump forward into the water. If I recall he said his idea at first was to swim to the crows nest as it was the first thing he saw, but abandoned the idea for obvious reasons.

The question I would of liked to ask of him would be... "Did you see boat B in the water and that was your target, or was your only goal to clear the ship?"

Either way he survied and I for one am glad he did.

All the best

Michael

Why did most people run aft? Was it the only bit if ground left?

 

[Michael H. Standart]

I'm not entirely convinced that Lights was being that much of a good company man so much as he was trying to protect his shipmates who couldn't speak for themselves. As a sailor, I understand that. My kind all know that The Board of Inquiry is NOT your friend!

He had to be nudged in that direction, but some of his revelations, like getting the ice warnings on the wireless, were very embarrassing.

 

[SunnyDay]

I'm not entirely convinced that Lights was being that much of a good company man so much as he was trying to protect his shipmates who couldn't speak for themselves. As a sailor, I understand that. My kind all know that The Board of Inquiry is NOT your friend!

He had to be nudged in that direction, but some of his revelations, like getting the ice warnings on the wireless, were very embarrassing.

Yes, they were his friends or at least colleagues and he went through a traumatic incident together. It's an intense bond. He may have had survivors guilt as well, or at least known that the ones who willingly chose to stay on the ship and die were good people... selfish people would have manned a lifeboat ASAP (and none came back).

As a sailor, what's your insight into the board?

 

[Michael H. Standart]

As a sailor, what's your insight into the board?

Boards of Inquiry are supposed to be objective fact finding bodies, but the catch is that they are still run by human beings who are seldom objective, and may be keen to fix blame. (Some of that blame, in fairness, may be well deserved.) Their findings can literally save or ruin somebody's career. Sometimes, a whole lot of somebody's.

You tend not to trust people who have that sort of power.

 

[SunnyDay]

Boards of Inquiry are supposed to be objective fact finding bodies, but the catch is that they are still run by human beings who are seldom objective, and may be keen to fix blame. (Some of that blame, in fairness, may be well deserved.) Their findings can literally save or ruin somebody's career. Sometimes, a whole lot of somebody's.

You tend not to trust people who have that sort of power.

Yes, plus they're gonna be influenced. If someone in the inquiry has fallen out/ is friendly with the company, that'll heavily influence the investigation.

 

[robert warren]

I might be going out on a limb here but...is it possible that Lightoller's vague and ambiguous statements were also due to mental exhaustion and maybe a little PTSD? The American inquiry started the day after Carpathia arrived in New York and these people were immediately swept up and subjected to all these questions. These poor guys had no time to really gather and process what they had been through. In Lightoller's case, the guy was standing on an overturned lifeboat in the North Atlantic less than a week ago, was very likely wanting to go back home, and probably was in no mood to be buried under an avalanche of inquiry questions.

 

[Michael Shakesby]

Why did most people run aft? Was it the only bit if ground left?

For the most part. No one wants to die, so running aft may seem the best thing to do. Lightoller thought this to be just putting off the inevitable (if I remember this was in his bbc " I was there" interview).

All the best

Michael

 

[SunnyDay]

I might be going out on a limb here but...is it possible that Lightoller's vague and ambiguous statements were also due to mental exhaustion and maybe a little PTSD? The American inquiry started the day after Carpathia arrived in New York and these people were immediately swept up and subjected to all these questions. These poor guys had no time to really gather and process what they had been through. In Lightoller's case, the guy was standing on an overturned lifeboat in the North Atlantic less than a week ago, was very likely wanting to go back home, and probably was in no mood to be buried under an avalanche of inquiry questions.

Thought id replied to this earlier. I really agree with you here. He's just been through a horribly traumatic incident, watched multiple people he knows suffer and die and now he's being grilled about it. The poor man probably just wanted a decent night's sleep and his loved ones.

Can you imagine? "Describe this horrible thing you've only just gone through in minute detail and we'll dissect everything that you did that night. Oh, and also we may destroy your career, your friends careers and you may be hung in the court of public opinion. No, you cant have time to let it sink in. Now please begin".

 

[Michael H. Standart]

I might be going out on a limb here but...is it possible that Lightoller's vague and ambiguous statements were also due to mental exhaustion and maybe a little PTSD? The American inquiry started the day after Carpathia arrived in New York and these people were immediately swept up and subjected to all these questions. These poor guys had no time to really gather and process what they had been through. In Lightoller's case, the guy was standing on an overturned lifeboat in the North Atlantic less than a week ago, was very likely wanting to go back home, and probably was in no mood to be buried under an avalanche of inquiry questions.

It may not be that much of a limb to go out on. PTSD was not understood or really even known as such back in 1912. If something bad happened, the expectation is that you would get past it or get over it. Even if you didn't, there was that unspoken expectation that you would "Just Deal With It."

Regarding the suddeness of the U.S. Senate investigation, we should be grateful that it happened at all. Human memory is not an indellible CD disc or a flash drive with an immutable memory. That "These poor guys had no time to really gather and process what they had been through" is where the human brain starts to try to sort things out by filling in gaps, often inaccurately. This is known as "Confabulation" and it's the reason why you want to get that information while memories are freshest and undistorted.

 

[SunnyDay]

It may not be that much of a limb to go out on. PTSD was not understood or really even known as such back in 1912. If something bad happened, the expectation is that you would get past it or get over it. Even if you didn't, there was that unspoken expectation that you would "Just Deal With It."

Regarding the suddeness of the U.S. Senate investigation, we should be grateful that it happened at all. Human memory is not an indellible CD disc or a flash drive with an immutable memory. That "These poor guys had no time to really gather and process what they had been through" is where the human brain starts to try to sort things out by filling in gaps, often inaccurately. This is known as "Confabulation" and it's the reason why you want to get that information while memories are freshest and undistorted.

Plus the questioners don't know how to question without damaging memory

 

[Michael Shakesby]

On the point of PTSD, I think it was mentioned in Titanic Voyager by Patrick Stenson that later in life Lightoller had a panic attack after running a cold bath on a hot day. After stepping into the cold water it took him straight back to fighting for his life in the North Atlantic.

All the best

Michael