Jim Kalafus
Member
Mr Brown: Michel Navratil was , for whatever reason, armed. A loaded revolver was listed among the effects recovered with his body. JIM
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A Shot in the Dark
- Thread starter Michael Tennaro
- Start date
David G. Brown
RIP
Thanks Jim. This is one area of the story into which I have done no research other than reading a book or two. However, I'd be surprised if there weren't other "gentlemen" carrying firearms. As to whether or not they were used during the panic of the last moments, I have no clue. But, thanks for your quick response.
-- David G. Brown
-- David G. Brown
Tad G. Fitch
Member
Dear David,
Hello, how are you? It is nice to "meet" you. I have been meaning to pick up a copy of your book, because I have been hearing good things about it, but have not had a chance as of yet. Am looking forward to reading it though.
"Question -- who was "packing heat" on Titanic that night besides the officers? Did any of the passengers have sidearms? Do we know?"
As far as the officers go, Second Officer Lightoller stated that the Webley revolvers were handed out to Smith, Wilde, Murdoch and himself. He mentions this incident in detail in his book, and briefly mentions it in his 1912 Christian Science interview. Fifth Officer Lowe had his own personal firearm aboard, and that is what he used. There is no evidence, in their own testimony, or that of others in the case of Moody, that Pitman, Boxhall or Moody were armed.
Jack Thayer mentioned in his book that Purser McElroy was armed and fired shots at Collapsible C, but the four other witnesses who actually mentioned a specific officer alleged that the man who fired the shots at this boat was First Officer Murdoch. Among them were Fireman Harry Senior, and passenger Hugh Woolner, who knew it was Murdoch by his voice. Besides Thayer's latter day account, there is nothing to suggest that McElroy was armed. Likewise, there is no evidence that either of the Master-At-Arms were armed, allegations on this message board not withstanding. It is perhaps possible that other officers may have been armed, but there is no evidence for it that I am aware of.
As far as the passengers, several are known to have been armed, including Baron von Drachstedt, who dishcarged his firearm while sitting in Lifeboat # 7 as a call for help, and Michel Navratil, whose body was recovered with a revolver on it. There is at least one other passenger who I believe was armed, but his name escapes me at the moment. I hope that this helps.
All my best,
Tad Fitch
Hello, how are you? It is nice to "meet" you. I have been meaning to pick up a copy of your book, because I have been hearing good things about it, but have not had a chance as of yet. Am looking forward to reading it though.
"Question -- who was "packing heat" on Titanic that night besides the officers? Did any of the passengers have sidearms? Do we know?"
As far as the officers go, Second Officer Lightoller stated that the Webley revolvers were handed out to Smith, Wilde, Murdoch and himself. He mentions this incident in detail in his book, and briefly mentions it in his 1912 Christian Science interview. Fifth Officer Lowe had his own personal firearm aboard, and that is what he used. There is no evidence, in their own testimony, or that of others in the case of Moody, that Pitman, Boxhall or Moody were armed.
Jack Thayer mentioned in his book that Purser McElroy was armed and fired shots at Collapsible C, but the four other witnesses who actually mentioned a specific officer alleged that the man who fired the shots at this boat was First Officer Murdoch. Among them were Fireman Harry Senior, and passenger Hugh Woolner, who knew it was Murdoch by his voice. Besides Thayer's latter day account, there is nothing to suggest that McElroy was armed. Likewise, there is no evidence that either of the Master-At-Arms were armed, allegations on this message board not withstanding. It is perhaps possible that other officers may have been armed, but there is no evidence for it that I am aware of.
As far as the passengers, several are known to have been armed, including Baron von Drachstedt, who dishcarged his firearm while sitting in Lifeboat # 7 as a call for help, and Michel Navratil, whose body was recovered with a revolver on it. There is at least one other passenger who I believe was armed, but his name escapes me at the moment. I hope that this helps.
All my best,
Tad Fitch
Lester Mitcham
Member
Hi Tad,
I believe you are thinking of George Harder.
Regards,
Lester
I believe you are thinking of George Harder.
Regards,
Lester
David G. Brown
RIP
Thanks all. Those who have read my book know that I carefully avoided what must have been a really ugly ending for those who remained on board Titanic after the boats. I've seen mob violence twice in my news career and know first-hand what it does to ordinary people. That's why I deliberately stayed away from the final moments. However, I've often wondered if the officers were the only people to fire weapons.
-- David G. Brown
-- David G. Brown
Shelley Dziedzic
Member
Well this may be a dumb question but firearms not being in my arena of expertise, would a flare gun also sound like a regular firearm? I am only assuming the white signal rockets were fired with something like a flaregun. If so, no wonder people heard shots or something similar. Experts out there?
Michael H. Standart
Member
I'm not sure what a flare gun sounds like, but I don't think it would be mistaken for some other sort of gun. People heard shots because they were in fact fired. Lowe trying to prevent a lifeboat from being rushed for example, though not at peaople, and we know that several of the officers and some of the passangers were packing heat that night. (Navratil Sr., Baron Von Drachstedt, George Harder, etc.)
While it can never be proven, it's not outside the realm of possibility that some of these weapons may have been used. IF (Mighty big IF) so, that could explain the assertions of bodies being recovered with bullet wounds.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
While it can never be proven, it's not outside the realm of possibility that some of these weapons may have been used. IF (Mighty big IF) so, that could explain the assertions of bodies being recovered with bullet wounds.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Bill Wormstedt
Member
Just to muddy the water some:
I always thought the sound of a funnel wire snapping would maybe resemble the sound of a pistol shot.
At around the same times other shots were alleged to have been fired, too!
Note to Inger, way back upstream - yes, I do plan to include Thad Stevens comments in my list of 'suspects' as to who may have shot himself.
I always thought the sound of a funnel wire snapping would maybe resemble the sound of a pistol shot.
At around the same times other shots were alleged to have been fired, too!
Note to Inger, way back upstream - yes, I do plan to include Thad Stevens comments in my list of 'suspects' as to who may have shot himself.
Dave Gittins
Member
Shelley, the distress signals were fired from a device like a small military mortar. It made a loud bang like a cannon that would not have been taken for a pistol. (The rules allowed the device as a substitute for cannon when making distress signals by day).
Michael Tennaro
Member
Hi all,
on the subject of flareguns, there was no such thing as what we would describe as a modern flaregun available in Titanic's time, was there?
on the subject of flareguns, there was no such thing as what we would describe as a modern flaregun available in Titanic's time, was there?
Shelley Dziedzic
Member
Michael- I have the experts researching the patents for flare guns-it may take a day. In the meantime there are 258 hits for "flare gun" including this one on the web!
Am so excited about the new life-saving devices, we may need a new thread here.
If memory serves, we used a fireworks-type mortar launcher on the '96 expedition to launch the facsimile Titanic rockets.
Marine self defense and safety equipment - survival at sea by M&M Enterprises
Marine self defense - the ultimate weapon for your personal protection, survival and safety at sea or on land. our flare gun adapter fires a .410 gauge shotgun shell.
web.archive.org
If memory serves, we used a fireworks-type mortar launcher on the '96 expedition to launch the facsimile Titanic rockets.
Michael H. Standart
Member
Just as a point of clearification, I have been reading Steve's book. The substance of what Steve wrote is this little quote;
"Stevens would later claim that John Snow, a Halifax undertaker, had personally told him that he had seen evidence of gunshot wounds on the bodies of some of the recovered victems."
Steve doesn't claim to be inspired inerrent, or to be speaking ex-cathedra on the subject, nor does he offer any personal opinion on whether or not he beleives it himself.
The text on which he deals with this matter is on pages 34-35, and deals more with what may have happened in the last minutes of the ships life as well as some of what is known to have occured. Overall, it's a rather minor facet of a very good book which deals with artifacts recovered and what happened to some of them.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
"Stevens would later claim that John Snow, a Halifax undertaker, had personally told him that he had seen evidence of gunshot wounds on the bodies of some of the recovered victems."
Steve doesn't claim to be inspired inerrent, or to be speaking ex-cathedra on the subject, nor does he offer any personal opinion on whether or not he beleives it himself.
The text on which he deals with this matter is on pages 34-35, and deals more with what may have happened in the last minutes of the ships life as well as some of what is known to have occured. Overall, it's a rather minor facet of a very good book which deals with artifacts recovered and what happened to some of them.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Dave Gittins
Member
There's photo of a flare pistol here.
www tias com/stores/aots/pictpages/Militaria-WW2/0141.html
They are often called Very pistols after an inventor. I know of no record of Titanic carrying any, but I think they were around at the time. I'll dig a little.
www tias com/stores/aots/pictpages/Militaria-WW2/0141.html
They are often called Very pistols after an inventor. I know of no record of Titanic carrying any, but I think they were around at the time. I'll dig a little.
Steve Santini
Member
Dear Michael,
Thank you very much for trying to help me out as far as making it clear about how I related the info of possible shootings in my book. I imagine people will continue to get worked up into a froth over this for some time to come. Let's hope before the naysayers get too wound up, they at least have the good and common sense to first read what they are being critical of i.e., my book. It is only after reading it does one get an idea of the context in which I put this subject, as well as other Titanic points of "speculation". Once again, that you very much Michael. While some folks would just as well "shoot the messenger", you have proven to me that cooler heads do prevail! Cheers from Canada, Steve Santini
Thank you very much for trying to help me out as far as making it clear about how I related the info of possible shootings in my book. I imagine people will continue to get worked up into a froth over this for some time to come. Let's hope before the naysayers get too wound up, they at least have the good and common sense to first read what they are being critical of i.e., my book. It is only after reading it does one get an idea of the context in which I put this subject, as well as other Titanic points of "speculation". Once again, that you very much Michael. While some folks would just as well "shoot the messenger", you have proven to me that cooler heads do prevail! Cheers from Canada, Steve Santini
Maureen Zottoli
Member
Steve Santini has written a terrific book. George, BTW, thanks for your kind words a while back.
Michael Standart is correct about the way this is worded and it seems odd that one who boohoos heresay would bash some data from a book that he had not read but relies on dare I say heresay to support his arguments.
Hmmmmmmmm.
Anyway, just thought I'd add some food for thought here. 1) Technically there is no proof that all 1500 persons who died were in fact on deck when the Titanic sunk. So Jason's figures may be off by a bit. 2) If persons had been shot and fell off the Titanic into the water, their bodies would have floated away from the ship as the debrie did, whereas folks caught near the ship may have been sucked back into portholes, funnels, etc. This would again cause the statistics to be more in favor of someone shot being found over someone just left on the Titanic.
3)This is only a personal theory not based on anything like research or anything, but I believe that it is more likely that only about a third of the total persons were on deck. Ask anyone who has gone to a crowded sports game as to the flow of patrons up the stairs in lines to leave the coliseum. I feel that many were crew and 3rd class adn were still trying to get up on deck. While I have heard storied and read things that third clas passengers had broken thorugh and were on their way up, I donot think that all made it up. And Jason's mathematics assumes that all made to the boat decks. I hate to say this, but I believe that considering the crew and passengers that probably about 1000 people were still below and only 500 got to the decks. I believe that the 350+ victims that were recovered represent a high amount of those who made it above and the wounded bodies would have drifted away and those say, 150 other persons were dragged down with the forces that took some of the survivors down.
It seems to me that I read that some survivors spoke of holding deperately to the guard rail until the person realized that the ship was going down. How many did this not thinking and were pulled beyond their ability to come back up to the surface?
Steve has written a wonderful book and it is relayed to us in a beautiful fashion. I would urge folks to go out and purchase this book. I personally have my copy that I treasure and bought two books as gifts for Christmas.
You get a Kudos from me Steve. Wonderful job.
Maureen.
Michael Standart is correct about the way this is worded and it seems odd that one who boohoos heresay would bash some data from a book that he had not read but relies on dare I say heresay to support his arguments.
Hmmmmmmmm.
Anyway, just thought I'd add some food for thought here. 1) Technically there is no proof that all 1500 persons who died were in fact on deck when the Titanic sunk. So Jason's figures may be off by a bit. 2) If persons had been shot and fell off the Titanic into the water, their bodies would have floated away from the ship as the debrie did, whereas folks caught near the ship may have been sucked back into portholes, funnels, etc. This would again cause the statistics to be more in favor of someone shot being found over someone just left on the Titanic.
3)This is only a personal theory not based on anything like research or anything, but I believe that it is more likely that only about a third of the total persons were on deck. Ask anyone who has gone to a crowded sports game as to the flow of patrons up the stairs in lines to leave the coliseum. I feel that many were crew and 3rd class adn were still trying to get up on deck. While I have heard storied and read things that third clas passengers had broken thorugh and were on their way up, I donot think that all made it up. And Jason's mathematics assumes that all made to the boat decks. I hate to say this, but I believe that considering the crew and passengers that probably about 1000 people were still below and only 500 got to the decks. I believe that the 350+ victims that were recovered represent a high amount of those who made it above and the wounded bodies would have drifted away and those say, 150 other persons were dragged down with the forces that took some of the survivors down.
It seems to me that I read that some survivors spoke of holding deperately to the guard rail until the person realized that the ship was going down. How many did this not thinking and were pulled beyond their ability to come back up to the surface?
Steve has written a wonderful book and it is relayed to us in a beautiful fashion. I would urge folks to go out and purchase this book. I personally have my copy that I treasure and bought two books as gifts for Christmas.
You get a Kudos from me Steve. Wonderful job.
Maureen.
