Californian passengers were there any

[Robert T. Paige]

>>Now, according to the Titanic Inquiry Project, there were no passengers on board the Californian that night.
I believe the girl's story is completely untrue but can someone confirm that no passengers were being carried at the time of Californian's encounter with the Titanic?<<

In ANTR, Captain Lord remarks, "Well, our passengers aren't in any hurry. Wouldn't be with us if they were."

 

[Michael H. Standart]

>>In ANTR, Captain Lord remarks, "Well, our passengers aren't in any hurry. Wouldn't be with us if they were."<<

As much as I like ANTR, I have to point out that not everything within is completely reliable, and that includes the memories of the witnesses that Walter Lord interviewed. Captain Lord was quite emphatic that he wasn't carrying passengers in his testimony, and the lack of any passenger list supports that. If he had been, you can bet that the immigration authorities in Boston would have taken note of any such. At this point in time, they were sticklers for that kind of thing and tended to be really unamused with undocumented passengers aboard any vessel entering a U.S. port.

 

[Bob Godfrey]

Robert is quoting a line from the film screenplay. That was written by Eric Ambler, not Walter Lord - ie by a dramatist rather than a historian. The makers of ANTR did want to retain a basis of historical accuracy in their film, but not to the extent that they (or their audience) were overly concerned about minor points such as this. For the purpose of debate about historical issues, no useful evidence can be obtained from a screenplay.
.

 

[Robert T. Paige]

Right On, Michael and Bob !

The makers of ANTR did take a few "literary licenses", too. ["Lightoller (Kenneth More) gets all the good lines."]

However, this line could be taken either way - if - or if not - there were any passengers aboard - " [They] wouldn't be with us if they were [in a hurry] ."

 

[Dave Gittins]

In fact, the makers of ANTR took so much liberty with the Californian affair that they triggered Captain Lord's final quest for a re-examination of his story. The scene of him in his bunk must have been particularly annoying to a man who kipped fully dressed on the chart room settee.

 

[Paul Lee]

Also, 3rd Officer Groves was indignant that, not only was his "listening with the headphones but the detector hadn't been wound" story not given prominence, but that Lord's quarters were shown to be poky (more spacious than the Olympics, Groves said) and that the officers seemed to wear any old junk as uniforms.

 

[Dave Gittins]

I looked at ANTR. Groves is shown picking up the headphones. He hears nothing but he notices the power is off. He switches on and hears Phillips' CQD. He evidently doesn't understand it, so he switches off and leaves. All of this is contrary to his story, including his claim that he could read slow Morse.

I'm not that much of a fan of ANTR. There are too many things of this kind. For instance, the Norwegian/American, Olaus Abelseth, is pointlessly turned into an Irishman towards the end. Why fiddle with established facts?

 

[Robert T. Paige]

>>Why fiddle with established facts?<<

>>That was written by Eric Ambler, not Walter Lord - ie by a dramatist rather than a historian. The makers of ANTR did want to retain a basis of historical accuracy in their film, but not to the extent that they (or their audience) were overly concerned about minor points such as this. For the purpose of debate about historical issues, no useful evidence can be obtained from a screenplay.<<

The above are points well taken. It seems screen writers can't leave well enough alone as far as sticking to the facts. "Truth is often stranger than fiction." Quite true. ;-)

"Just the facts, ma'am !" - Joe Friday

"I never cease to marvel at what the Press is able to do with something so mundane as the truth..." - Sherlock Holmes, "Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Holmes", by Loren D. Estleman.

 

[Timothy Trower]

>>Why fiddle with established facts?<<

Indeed, why? Ambler also had the orchestra playing "Nearer, My God, to Thee" in direct contradiction to what Lord had written (that being the hymn "Autumn" (which Lord later corrected in "The Night Lives On"). It was done for the dramatic effect.

I've not ever seen any documentation of the Californian carrying passengers on this trip, and we have Lord's own testimony to prove this point.

What Eric Ambler did correctly portray was firing of rockets from the Titanic that were seen by the Californian.

The simple fact remains that rockets were seen from the bridge of the Californian. No one can explain them away. From eight to fifteen (according to the latest god of the Californian, Senan Malony) were fired, but the simple act of waking the ships' wireless operator was not taken until far too late.

 

[Jason D. Tiller]

(according to the latest god of the Californian, Senan Malony)

Who said he was a God?

 

[Michael H. Standart]

In fairness, I'm not entirely convinced that waking the wireless operator would have done as much good as one might suppose. They would have found out about the Titanic a lot sooner on the one hand, but on the other hand, the position the Californian would have recieved would have been the wrong one.

Where to go?

In the direction of the rockets where you at least know something is going on, or to the position given by the navigator of one of the crack express liners?

I would hope that common sense would prevail and that they would ask for clearification along the lines of "Are you firing distress signals?" but this is hardly a sure thing. Status counted for a lot, and the officers of the big express liners had quite a bit of it.

 

[Samuel Halpern]

The issue Michael has nothing to do with what would have happened if Stone had acted responsibly when he saw those signals. The issue is the actions taken, or not taken, by the those responsible on the Californian when those signals were seen. As the MAIB concluded, as soon as 2/O Stone was sure that he was indeed seeing rockets:

- The Master should have been called and if he did not immediately respond Mr. Stone should have reported to him in person.
- Engine Room should have been placed on immediate readiness by ringing ‘Stand By Engines’.
- The Wireless Operator should have been called.
- and Captain Lord on being called should have at once gone to the Bridge, verified that the Engine Room was at readiness and the Wireless Operator at his post, and then got under way towards the apparent source of the rockets.

Part of the problem has to do with the exact information Stone gave Lord when he called him up on the speaking tube after seeing the first few rockets before Gibson arrived. The apparent mistake that Lord made, especially since it was unclear as to what was being seen, was to assume that his OOW would take appropriate follow-up action if what he was witnessing were distress signals. As another master mariner once said, when in doubt a master should never assume, always confirm.

As far as a god of the Californian, "Thou shalt not make any graven images."

 

[Timothy Trower]

"Who said he was a God?"

Not me. I said he was the latest (small g) god. Big difference to me!

 

[Inger Sheil]

Fine. Who said he was a 'god', Tim? Aside from you, of course.

 

[Timothy Trower]

Me, myself and I; in reality, I've read Molony's latest (Titanic and the Mystery Ship) and found it an unconvincing argument on behalf of the innocence of the Californian.

At the same time, I found parts of the book a fascinating read ... his review of the testimony surrounding the number of rockets actually fired was interesting, and I learned a lot from it about the actual events on board the Titanic whilst the rockets were being fired. It just goes to show that the source material is the best source, and it is hard for any one person to grasp it all.

Since this particular thread has delved into the screenplay of ANTR, I was being rather tongue-in-cheek with my characterization of Molony. In my view, he has set himself as a final arbiter of what happened that night in regards to the Californian; Walter Lord said it best when he wrote, "It is a rash man indeed who would set himself up as final arbiter on all that happened the incredible night the Titanic went down."