Michael H. Standart
Member
Hmmmmmmmmmm.....looks like she was a good shot as well.
Charlotte Drake Cardeza
- Thread starter Peyton Jenkins
- Start date
Brian Ahern
Member
João - I don't think the account has any woman in boat 3 smoking. I believe Mrs. Spedden's account has the woman drinking whiskey from a flask and refusing to share. Elizabeth Schutes had a couple of men - whom some put as Thomas Cardeza and Gustave Lesneur - smoking.
Regarding Mrs. Cardeza's heritage, according to Judith Gellar, her father was an immigrant from England who made a fortune supplying uniforms to the Union army during the Civil War. I don't know how much of a social handicap this was - the Drexels, who seem to have held a lot of sway socially in Philadelphia by this point, didn't arrive in the US until the nineteenth century. And the father of Tessie Oerricks and Virginia Vanderbilt was an Irish (and Catholic) immigrant, and they were pretty important to Newport and New York.
Some of what we know about Mrs Cardeza indicates that she could be a difficult person (particularly as a mother and mother-in-law), but I do think she had heart. It appears that she was good to the people in her employ and, according to Judith Gellar, she gave away large sums of money without calling attention to it.
My guess would be she could have occupied a larger place in society than she evidently did if she hadn't been so busy traveling and living large. Still, it is strange that she turns up in so few survivor accounts. She seems like someone whom the other Philadelphians would at least have been aware of. It's worth nothing, though, that she wasn't in the vicinity of the Boat 4 crowd during the sinking, and it's the sinking that Marian Thayer's and Emily Ryerson's accounts largely deal with.
Regarding Mrs. Cardeza's heritage, according to Judith Gellar, her father was an immigrant from England who made a fortune supplying uniforms to the Union army during the Civil War. I don't know how much of a social handicap this was - the Drexels, who seem to have held a lot of sway socially in Philadelphia by this point, didn't arrive in the US until the nineteenth century. And the father of Tessie Oerricks and Virginia Vanderbilt was an Irish (and Catholic) immigrant, and they were pretty important to Newport and New York.
Some of what we know about Mrs Cardeza indicates that she could be a difficult person (particularly as a mother and mother-in-law), but I do think she had heart. It appears that she was good to the people in her employ and, according to Judith Gellar, she gave away large sums of money without calling attention to it.
My guess would be she could have occupied a larger place in society than she evidently did if she hadn't been so busy traveling and living large. Still, it is strange that she turns up in so few survivor accounts. She seems like someone whom the other Philadelphians would at least have been aware of. It's worth nothing, though, that she wasn't in the vicinity of the Boat 4 crowd during the sinking, and it's the sinking that Marian Thayer's and Emily Ryerson's accounts largely deal with.
Mike Poirier
Member
Are you sure that picture is from 1911? I think there are quite a few pictures of her on file at the college she donated to. I think the photos there show her as heavy-set. The pictures from Judy Gellar's book are from her 30's!
Bob Godfrey
Member
It would be hard to verify the date of that pic because there's nothing and nobody else in the scene for comparison. But I've seen more formal groups where she is clearly in her mid-40s and I'd say she was just as slim then as in the pics used by Geller. In the safari pic she looks a little broader in the beam!
sashka pozzetti
Guest
In my opinion, the skirt seems a little bit high for 1911. I don't know if different rules applied if you were taking part in a sport like this, but the whole thing, including the shirt looks a bit casual to me for the Edwardian era. 
Mike Poirier
Member
Hi Bob
Probably the best thing for you to do would be to write Jefferson Medical to get copies of the pics. Other than that, an article was written by John Hauschild around 1993. He had pictures from the family doctor, and there are pictures of her from around the disaster and she was 'pleasantly plump'
Probably the best thing for you to do would be to write Jefferson Medical to get copies of the pics. Other than that, an article was written by John Hauschild around 1993. He had pictures from the family doctor, and there are pictures of her from around the disaster and she was 'pleasantly plump'
Bob Godfrey
Member
Mike, your mention of Jefferson Medical reminds me that it was they who provided the 1911 date for the safari pic. I couldn't say whether that's from documentary evidence in their archive or is just an educated guess on their part.
sashka pozzetti
Guest
I looked at some other pictures on Google.I didn't realise what age she was in 1912. There a one good picture of her when younger, and I would say that she had a 'round' face, which she still had when photographed in the image of her on ET in evening wear. Her face is all that would have showed when she was in her full Edwardian gowned splendor. Maybe this is why she was thought of by some as 'fat'?
Bob Godfrey
Member
Sashka, I doubt there was need for a dress code for female big game hunters! She looks to be wearing a split 'riding skirt' (like a skirt for each leg) over high boots, a style which started in the Victorian period - you see it a lot in Western films. Women playing sports were generally expected to keep themselves well covered, but Edwardians weren't shocked to see women swimmers competing at the Olympics in costumes much like those which would be worn today.
sashka pozzetti
Guest
I agree. It just looks unusual compared with the normal length. The shirt is also extremely informal. The main thing to me is her age. She doesn't look particularly young, and nor does she look like she has just escaped the retirement home! It is a very difficult picture, with half her face in shadow. It doesn't look much to me like the same person as the other pictures, but I doubt there were too many female big game hunters! Whatever the date, it was what she did, and it is quite amazing when you look at the other pictures of her!!
Martin Williams
Member
I'm not sufficiently familiar with Mrs Cardeza's physical attributes to date this photograph on that basis...but, judging by her costume, I wouldn't have any difficulty in believing that she is pictured in 1911. As Bob quite rightly says, there would not have been strict dress codes for women hunting on the African plains! Charlotte wears eminently sensible gear - a big hat to screen her from the sun, a loose shirt and a short skirt suitable for riding and stalking on rough terrain.
Mike Poirier
Member
Hi Bob-
I think you got an archivist that made an educated guess. Having seen the circa 1912 photos of her and also her passport photo- she simply grew into a larger woman and I would guess the photo you have is from 1901. She even looks younger.
I think you got an archivist that made an educated guess. Having seen the circa 1912 photos of her and also her passport photo- she simply grew into a larger woman and I would guess the photo you have is from 1901. She even looks younger.
sashka pozzetti
Guest
So, I looked up more pictures of Mrs Cardeza, and was drawn to a newspaper illustration that Michael has posted some time ago on ET It shows her face, and she looks more like the woman in the above photo, and less full in face. It also shows sketches of her in action,with a gun, in the same big hat, and clothes. Do you know what year that picture is?
Mike Poirier
Member
Well like alot of those ladies, Eleanor Widener, the papers ran older more flattering pics. Remember, Charlotte was about 60 on Titanic. She doesnt look more than 40 in the other pic.
sashka pozzetti
Guest
When I first looked at the picture I also thought she looked like she was in her 40's. Though I find it very difficult to tell when looking at people in 'the old days'.
