Coal and Sparks during Break-up

[Oliver K]

Titanic's Marconi Set featured a "Bradfield Type Insulator" it was the Marconi Patent insulator for the aerial lead-in, and was designed with a "weather cone" and other features so that salt water could not get into the lead-in.

There is a chance that moisture (from sea water) was in the air, and this is what the lead-in was arcing against.

Yes, it was probably a safety danger, being that the sparks emitted from the lead-in? I presume were arcing into the air, then yes, anyone near that connector could possibly get arched by 5kw, that wouldn't be pretty.

Remember that the Marconi operated on 5kw, and that 5kw was dumped into the aerial, meaning that the entire thing was a safety hazard to crew any time it was being worked.

The arcing may or may not have been normal, I'm going to say its a normal thing with high-power transmitters, i do know someone who knows about radio so i will ask him if he knows about lead-ins arcing.

I hope this helps, been learning about this for a long time now.

And there are many sites that detail the marconi installation, i will link them later.

 

[Aaron_2016]

Has anyone been able to confirm exactly what was the cause for the shower of sparks that were seen emitting out of one or more of the funnels? Here is a steam tractor emitting a great amount of steam and sparks. Could something similar have occurred?


Skip to 1.10





Here are 5 survivor accounts that relate to the sparks, steam, and smoke.


Harold Bride
"Smoke and sparks were rushing out of her funnels. There must have been an explosion, but we heard none. We only saw a big stream of sparks."


Emily Hart
"She appeared to be breaking in halves.........For a few moments we could see everything that was happening, for, as the vessel sank, millions and millions of sparks flew up and lit everything around us, and in an instant the sea was alive with wreckage, with chairs, pillows, and rugs, benches, tables, cushions, and strangely enough, black with an enormous mass of coffee beans." (Note - she saw the ship break and she could see the floating debris when millions of sparks flew up and illuminated the surrounding area.)

Charlotte Collyer
"It came with a deafening roar that stunned me. Something in the very bowels of the Titanic exploded and millions of sparks shot up to the sky, like rockets in a park on the night of a summer holiday. This red spurt was fan shaped as it went up, but the sparks descended in every direction in the shape of a fountain of fire. Two other explosions followed, dull and heavy, as if below the surface. The Titanic broke in two before my eyes."


Jack Thayer
"One of the funnels seemed to be lifted off and fell towards me about 15 yards away, with a mass of sparks and steam coming out of it. I saw the ship in a sort of a red glare, and it seemed to me that she broke in two just in front of the third funnel." "The ship seemed to be surrounded with a glare, and stood out of the night as though she were on fire......The second funnel, large enough for two automobiles to pass through abreast, seemed to be lifted off, emitting a cloud of sparks." (Note - He saw the mass/cloud of sparks, and the steam, and similar to Collyer's account, he saw the ship surrounded in a red glare as if she were on fire, which is when Emily Hart briefly saw the debris floating all around as the red glare brightly illuminated the surrounding area).

Frank Osman
"After she got to a certain angle she exploded, broke in halves.....You could see the explosions by the smoke coming right up the funnels."
Q - Did you see any steam and smoke coming?
A - Yes.
Q - Did you see any sparks?
A - It was all black. Looked like as if it was lumps of coal, and all that.
Q - Coming up through the funnels?
A - Through the funnels. Just after the explosion. Pretty big lumps. I do not know what is was. I never seen no water; only the steam and very black smoke. (Note - Owing to his viewpoint behind the stern he possibly could not see the shower of sparks raining down, especially if he had his back to the ship, and when he turned and looked he instead saw a heavy shower of coal raining down and billowing black smoke. Possibly this is what Emly Hart saw when she described the scene as - "black with an enormous mass of coffee beans" - raining down like coal? They both could have been witnessing the same thing as the black substance rained down.)


After the second larger explosion the stern broke completely away, and some time later it eventually went down.

Frederick Clench
Q - How long a time would you say it was after the second explosion before she sank out of sight?
A - I should say a matter of about 20 minutes.



When the survivors arrived in New York the reporters spoke to them and published this summary of the sinking. We don't know which survivors they spoke to in the immediate rush to get the story printed, but it closely matches what the survivors above had all witnessed. e.g. steam, sparks, smoke, volcanic fountain of fire, and finally sank about 20 minutes later.


The Lexington Intelligencer

Any ideas what caused the massive shower of sparks to rain down and illuminate the surrounding area, and what the black substance was that was seen landing close to the lifeboats? Whatever it was, it came out with incredible force.


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[Kyle Naber]

I think there may have been a dust reaction within the funnel, or it was simply a result of metallic friction as it came down as the first.

 

[Rancor]

Great video of the traction engine there. I think in that circumstance they are shovelling saw dust into the firebox to produce the effect on purpose to give a 'wow' factor for the show.

Regarding the sinking the theory I've heard that makes the most sense is a coal dust explosion. A rapid flooding of BR 4 or 3 would have produced a massive rush of air, some of which would have gone up the funnel. This would have carried any soot or dust with it, and an ignition source such as any fires still going in the boilers could have set it off.

 

[Rancor]

You can see a similar effect here as this vessel sinks, though without the soot igniting. Skip to 2:10.

 

[Aaron_2016]

Great video of the traction engine there. I think in that circumstance they are shovelling saw dust into the firebox to produce the effect on purpose to give a 'wow' factor for the show.

Regarding the sinking the theory I've heard that makes the most sense is a coal dust explosion. A rapid flooding of BR 4 or 3 would have produced a massive rush of air, some of which would have gone up the funnel. This would have carried any soot or dust with it, and an ignition source such as any fires still going in the boilers could have set it off.

Thanks, although would the coal dust ignite and remain lit long enough to produce a firey shower of bright red rain that was powerful enough to illuminate the surrounding area? It would need to be a terrific amount of coal dust and soot. Would the Titanic have accumilated enough during her maiden voyage to produce this effect? Philip Mock said - "After the noise I saw a huge column of black smoke slightly lighter than the sky, rising high into the sky, and then flattening out at the top like a mushroom." Could this mushroom cloud settle above the ship owing to the different layers of temperature in the air above the ship, and could the entire substance ignite like a hydrogen explosion above the ship which resulted in the cloud of sparks raining down over the lifeboats?

Frank Osman thought he saw huge lumps of coal raining down. I would gather he was judging the size of the lumps by the splashing sounds raining down around their lifeboat. There were reports of a recovered body that was covered in black soot and this body was misidentified as Colonel Astor's body. Although this soot could have been expelled when one of the other funnels submerged and could be unrelated to the explosive release of steam, sparks, and smoke shooting high above the ship and illuminating the area.


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[Rancor]

Thanks, although would the coal dust ignite and remain lit long enough to produce a firey shower of bright red rain that was powerful enough to illuminate the surrounding area? It would need to be a terrific amount of coal dust and soot. Would the Titanic have accumilated enough during her maiden voyage to produce this effect? Philip Mock said - "After the noise I saw a huge column of black smoke slightly lighter than the sky, rising high into the sky, and then flattening out at the top like a mushroom." Could this mushroom cloud settle above the ship owing to the different layers of temperature in the air above the ship, and could the entire substance ignite like a hydrogen explosion above the ship which resulted in the cloud of sparks raining down over the lifeboats?

Frank Osman thought he saw huge lumps of coal raining down. I would gather he was judging the size of the lumps by the splashing sounds raining down around their lifeboat. There were reports of a recovered body that was covered in black soot and this body was misidentified as Colonel Astor's body. Although this soot could have been expelled when one of the other funnels submerged and could be unrelated to the explosive release of steam, sparks, and smoke shooting high above the ship and illuminating the area.


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All good questions Aaron, I have also wondered if enough dust would build up over the short lifespan of the ship.

I did find this video of a coal dust explosion in a mine. Seems to have a lot of similarities with what the survivors saw.

 

[Rancor]

Here is another video showing a coal dust explosion, effectively from a funnel, though horizontal. At night time these events would light up the surrounding area and would be very spectacular.

 

[Rancor]

And finally, if you will excuse the triple post, is this video here showing an explosion caused by one hard hat worth of coal dust suspended in the air.



I'd be pretty certain that at least one hard-hat worth of coal dust would have accumulated in the funnels, uptakes, fire tubes, combustion chambers and ash pits of BR 4 by the time of the sinking, or could have been blown up the funnels from the boiler room or coal bunkers themselves by the rush of air displaced by water from a collapsing bulkhead.

 

[coal eater]

boiler room 4 fires were extinguished and boiler room 4 was abandoned,there was no way boilers could cause smoke and sparks.

maybe boiler room 3 did flood with bolers still powered with steam and burning coal inside.

 

[Kyle Naber]

I wonder if the funnel fell at the same moment of the break like in this animaiton:



If I recall correctly, Lightoller remembered seeing the second funnel being submerged by actually quite a bit but never saw its collapse.

Jack Thayer also describes the break and then the second funnel. "One of the funnels seemed to be lifted off and fell towards me about 15 yards away, with a mass of sparks and steam coming out of it. I saw the ship in a sort of a red glare, and it seemed to me that she broke in two just in front of the third funnel."

Possibly this could mean that the second funnel collapsed right in front of him as the ship had broken apart, and when the funnel wasn't a concern to him anymore, he noticed that the stern had broken off.

Could the tensions caused by the break have transferred sparks and debris up through the funnel?

 

[coal eater]

funnel 1 represents boler room 6 and 5 , funnel 2 represents boiler room 4 and 3 - you might be correct mr.Kyle, at time of break up br 3 was still used to provide steam for dynamos and when funnel collapsed water could easily flood the boiler room throught funnel shaft.. that means sparks,white/black smoke could emerge from there, but again boiler room 3 was not so huge and if any boiler exploded due to rapid flood throught funnel the explosion should bent shell platng around area of boiler room 3,maybe there was not eoungh pressure to actually make boiler explode,instead boiler just bursted steam,sparks,coal throught funnel vent/shaft into surface,maybe during break up there was more distant microfractures that smoke could access and emerge from area of break up aswell?

 

[Kyle Naber]

funnel 1 represents boler room 6 and 5 , funnel 2 represents boiler room 4 and 3 - you might be correct mr.Kyle, at time of break up br 3 was still used to provide steam for dynamos and when funnel collapsed water could easily flood the boiler room throught funnel shaft.. that means sparks,white/black smoke could emerge from there, but again boiler room 3 was not so huge and if any boiler exploded due to rapid flood throught funnel the explosion should bent shell platng around area of boiler room 3,maybe there was not eoungh pressure to actually make boiler explode,instead boiler just bursted steam,sparks,coal throught funnel vent/shaft into surface,maybe during break up there was more distant microfractures that smoke could access and emerge from area of break up aswell?

I'm not proposing that a boiler exploded. I'm talking about coal dust inside the funnel. When there's dust particles in a space that are being put under a high amount of pressure (the ship sinking lower and lower) they can sometimes ignite, thus creating the flames and smoke that survivors saw coming out one of the funnels.

 

[Aaron_2016]

I wonder if the funnel fell at the same moment of the break like in this animaiton:

If I recall correctly, Lightoller remembered seeing the second funnel being submerged by actually quite a bit but never saw its collapse.

Jack Thayer also describes the break and then the second funnel. "One of the funnels seemed to be lifted off and fell towards me about 15 yards away, with a mass of sparks and steam coming out of it. I saw the ship in a sort of a red glare, and it seemed to me that she broke in two just in front of the third funnel."

Possibly this could mean that the second funnel collapsed right in front of him as the ship had broken apart, and when the funnel wasn't a concern to him anymore, he noticed that the stern had broken off.

Could the tensions caused by the break have transferred sparks and debris up through the funnel?

Wonder what caused the ship to roll so violently and if this caused the ship to twist and buckle apart, or if this was the immediate after effect of the initial buckling and rapid flooding. Mrs. Hippach described the ship twisting and then breaking into three. Lightoller described the ship - "reeling for a moment, then plunging" and how there was - "An explosion, there was another explosion, and I came to the surface. The ship seemed to be heaving tremendous sighs as she went down."

The reeling and twisting of the ship from side to side, forward to back, must have been a significant part of the breaking. John Haggan said - "The ship was shaking very much, part of it being under water. On looking up at it, I could see death in a minute for us as the forward funnel was falling and it looked a certaintly it would strike our boat and smash it to pieces."

Mary Glynn was in lifeboat 13 which was estimated to be half a mile away when the Titanic went down. Mary said: "We watched the Titanic rolling and bobbing like a cork. All her lights were burning, and over the water we caught the strains of 'Nearer, My God, to Thee.’ Finally Titanic ceased rolling, seemed to hesitate a moment, and plunged her bow into the ocean." She also said - "There was a terrific explosion, which threw the water in a turmoil, and fragments of the ship were hurled high into the air. I supposed the boilers had exploded."

Emily Hart was also in her lifeboat and saw millions of sparks fly into the air when she appeared to explode and break apart. What is interesting is that she was able to identify the furniture etc that was blown a considerable distance away from the ship and when the "millions of sparks" illuminated the sky and reflected on the ocean (lighting it up as well) she was able to see a considerable amount of wreckage floating close by. e.g. "She appeared to be breaking in halves.........For a few moments we could see everything that was happening, for, as the vessel sank, millions and millions of sparks flew up and lit everything around us, and in an instant the sea was alive with wreckage."

Mr. Osman testified that the explosions threw coal, smoke and steam up through the funnels and then the stern righted herself. I believe Mr. Hyman saw the same thing, as he heard the steam escaping and saw parts of the ship blown into the air.

Mr. Hyman
"There came a terrible explosion, and I could see men, women and pieces of the ship blown into the air from the after deck. Later I saw bodies partly blown to pieces floating around, and I am sure more than a hundred persons were blown off into the sea by that explosion. A terrible hissing of steam began and the awful cry went on. I tried to close my ears, but there was some mysterious attraction and I had to hear that cry. The hissing and screaming kept up, and finally the ship seemed to right itself."


I believe the animations presented by honor and glory are too brief and the sinking must have been much more chaotic and violent, maybe even unpredictable, as the funnels collapsed in different directions and water rushed into all sides of her forward and aft on both sides, but considerably unevenly as ruptured decks, hull plating, and opened windows would allow the ship to settle on all sides very rapidly which tilted the ship and rolled her back and forth and threw the funnels over and she buckled completely, broke and sank. I believe this is something that would be incredibly hard for a single survivor to describe in one brief statement and why there were so many survivor accounts that seemingly portray the sinking in a different way, especially as they observed the ship from different perspectives at different times of the sinking.


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[Kyle Naber]

I think the recent video of THG's breakup seems pretty violent to me, especially if you're there in real life. Yes, it settles somewhat slowly, but you have to picture yourself as small as one of those people clinging on the decks or watching from the boats. You'd hear the "explosion," the break bobs up like a cork and pieces fall out of the opening, the funnels collapse and most of the lights go out. If you didn't know what was happening completely (everyone witnessing it) it would seem like something extremely catastrophic like boilers exploding was happening. But really, the weight of the stern just had to be relieved.