Fleet's 'Haze'

[Aaron_2016]

Yes, I know what I wrote and I believe Lee was kept out of the US Inquiry because his testimony in Britain was damaging and if the white star officials had interigated him before the Inquiry began (common sense thing to do) then he would have said what we already know he said in Britain (i.e. we would hear a repeat of what we know he said, regardless of chronoligical order). It is not my claim that Lee was detained. I merely repeated what Fleet had told the Inquiry. e.g. "I do not know where Lee is. He got detained in New York." Nothing more was mentioned. For all we know somebody took a bribe and the matter was dropped, or he was advised under pressure to 'disappear' and was unable to get hold of. We can only speculate. By the time the British Inquiry began the chess pieces were in place. We can see how sarcastic Lee's answers were and how the examiners did not believe him e.g.

Commissioner:
"My impression is this, that the man was trying to make an excuse for not seeing the iceberg, and he thought he could make it out by creating a thick haze."

Lee also spoke very quietly. He probably was looking down and reluctant to speak up.

Q - .....I could not hear you. Try to speak up?

Q - .....You must not whisper your answers. Speak up so that we can hear you.



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[Rob Lawes]

So if White Star interrogated Lee and kept him out of the way of the US authorities, how come they let Oliver speak in the US if his testimony was as damaging as you've claimed in other posts such that they some how kept him away from the British Inquiry?

Let me just get this clear in my head. You believe the following (based on my summing up of your posts across various threads):

"Towards the end of the 8 - 10 lookouts watch, a haze began to appear that could indicate the presence of ice on the horizon. This haze, observed by Fleet and Lee got worse during their watch. Sometime before 11:30 Fleet observed icebergs and began to report these to the bridge. He used the bell, tried phoning but got no answer and finally started shouting warnings to the bridge. Murdoch, having taken over from the 2nd Officer and having been told the Captain's instructions about being called if it becomes doubtful, is quite confident that, as he can see the same bergs as Fleet and Lee, he does not need to reduce speed. Murdoch may or may not have taken steering action to avoid a berg. This is until an unseen berg looms up and, despite final desperate warnings from Fleet, again ignored by Murdoch and Moody, the ship collides with the ice. No steering orders occur until after impact when by then it is too late"

White Star discovered these facts and, possibly with the compliance of the Wreck Commissioner's inquiry, wilfully and actively participated in a cover up to prevent the truth of what would amount today as charges of Corporate Manslaughter through gross negligence, coming to light.

Is that what you believe?

 

[Aaron_2016]

More or less, yes. Based on what the survivors said. But does it really matter what I think? I'm interested in what the survivors said both inside and outside the Inquiry with no favouritism to either. However the blatant contradictions said during the Inquiry added with Lightoller's claim that the Inquiry was a whitewash doesn't help matters. There could be any number of plausible reasons. Regarding Olliver. If a white star official asked Olliver if he was on the bridge at the time of the collision he might have replied, - no, I arrived on the bridge just after, and that satisfied the official who then permitted him to testify in America. He ended up telling them about the captain ordering half speed ahead, witnessing the ship break, and having no knowledge of any 'hard a-starboard' order. His evidence contradicted Hichens, Boxhall's, and Pitman's, so I believe it made sense to keep him out of the British Inquiry in the same fashion that Lee was kept out or "detained" from the US Inquiry. Just my personal opinion. That is all.


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[Jim Currie]

No, Jim, steam fog and advection fog are two absolutely different animals.Another name for steam fog is evaporation fog, and it is the fog (mist, haze) that fits the description provided by witnesses on the night of the tragedy. Here's the link for you How Fog Forms and it is the same description provided by UK Metoffice in your link.. So do you see now why I do not believe you?
Anyway I did email Canada coast guard, and got the response that yes, steam fog does occur in the area in precisely the same conditions that Titanic sank. I am now about 80% sure that this kind of fog was present at the time of the sinking.
Here's my image of advection fog https://i.pinimg.com/736x/1e/af/e5/1eafe5a01c4301b28daccf1eb1bb90a4--golden-gate-bridge-bay-area.jpg
See the difference between this image and the video from my prior post?

What your CG contact was describing is "Sea Smoke". Here is the US Meteorological Society deffinitions
"steam fog
(Or sea smoke;
also called arctic sea smoke, antarctic sea smoke, frost smoke, water smoke, sea mist, steam mist.) Fog formed when water vapor is added to air that is much colder than the vapor's source; most commonly, when very cold air drifts across relatively warm water.

I have very often sailed in an area of sea smoke, Mila Here is a picture of it.

Here are the conditions that created the above:

The conditions for the formation of Sea Smoke, Steam Fog or whatever you want to call it just did not exist that night.
Even if they did, sea smoke is very low lying, you don't see it 15 miles away on a dark night and as you can see from the above, it is very low lying and does not obscure the vision of a Lookout.

 

[Mila]

Jim, it is probably useless to argue with you, but

1. Steam fog could be rather high
https://img-aws.ehowcdn.com/877x500p/photos.demandstudios.com/getty/article/99/134/160310382.jpg

2."it is very low lying and does not obscure the vision of a Lookout.". Sure it does. This image of Alcatraz Island in sea smoke. It is much bigger than the iceberg and it was photographed on a bright, sunny day , yet some parts of it are obscured from my view
.

3. As I mentioned a few times before, the Titanic sank in a permanent feature that some scientists call "cold water tongue". It is ever changing in size and shape, but it is always present. The water temperature inside this tongue are changing rapidly and drastically (read old reports of IIP available online free), creating very good conditions for steam fog to form, and steam fog could and does form, when the air is only a few degrees cooler than the water. Frost smoke and steam fog are absolutely different fogs, once again you compare two different fogs.

 

[Jim Currie]

Hello Mila.

No, it is most certainly not "useless to argue" with me. Reasoned argument produces information. Only by exchange of information and the widest possible examination of such information will we ever arrive at a common goal. One thing I do not do, and nor do you, is to blindly accept the thought processes of others. here's some more information for you and more to consider.

In fact, the ACT...The Atlantic Cold tongue is near the equator and south of where I am right now... nowhere near the spot Titanic met the iceberg.
The fogs around Alcatraz Island and the Golden Gate area are formed by a completely different sequence of meteorological events to those which create sea smoke found in the Arctic and polar regions.

If you want to know the truth, get hold of a meteorologist or environmental scientist and pose the following question:
You are in a High-pressure area in mid-ocean, at night and in the vicinity of a vast area of pack ice. There is no wind, sea state or cloud. All conditions are zero on the Beaufort Scales. The sea temperature and air temperatures in the vicinity of and above the pack ice are almost equal at zero Celsius. and the Wet and dry thermometer readings are at parity. What, if any, meteorological phenomenon might such conditions produce.

Finally:

If a mist existed in the area over the pack ice, why was it that not one single vessel reported such a mist in their weather reports to the US Hydrographic Office? After all the whole idea of completing the Met report Forms was for the scientists to formulate weatherpatterns in the North Atlantic.>

 

[Mila]

Hi Jim,

First thing first. Let's agree on a clod water tongue. You may want to start with reading my article https://rmets.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/wea.3243 in which I explained and referenced a cold water tongue, in which the Titanic sank.

 

[Jim Currie]

Id love to Mila but i can't access it. I don't have a pasword.

 

[David G. Brown]

The “haze” allegedly seen by the lookouts and even some passengers is a curiosity within the Titanic story that tantalizes the best of researchers. However, it did not make any difference to the outcome of the evening? I am of the opinion that if anything it helped see the fatal berg sooner than otherwise would have been the case. This means the haze more helped than hindered vision that night and that's what caused the accident.

Consider that the lookouts saw the iceberg as a “black mass” or silhouette in what should have been plenty of time to avoid disaster. We know from crewman Scarrott and the actions of Boxhall that the three strikes on the crow’s nest bell came five to eight minutes prior to impact. Surely, Titanic was nimble enough to have dodged the berg in that period of time.

Quartermaster Hichens stated the ship turned left two points (requiring starboard helm in 1912 parlance) prior to impact. He obviously assumed this course change was part of a manueuver to avoid “the berg.” Boxhall’s testimony weakly supports him on the left turn. Despite a 22.5 degree change in heading, lookouts Fleet and Lee still observed the ship was pointed straight at the fatal berg which was now in close quarters with the bow.

Although the numbers used were admittedly rough approximations, I found that an iceberg apparently off the bow at a distance of two miles could have been up to 900 feet left of the ship’s course and still been “dead ahead” requiring three bell strokes. Six minutes later, that berg would have been about 22 to 24 degrees left of the ship’s course. It was possible that the two point left turn (allegedly “hard a-starboard”) actually pointed the ship at the deadly berg. Or, probably more likely, the original “black mass” was passed to starboard and the two-point course change headed Titanic at a second iceberg at “in extremis” range.

Either way, he lookout’s 3-bell signal would have more reassured than alarmed Murdoch who would have been aware of the 2-point course change. He would have seen little or no need for any other emergency actions. Titanic in his mind would have been turning away from the reported danger. Or, that’ the way he may have perceived things until that monstrous chunk of ice was fine on the starboard bow and closing at 22 knots.

Had the “haze” (using the word as an undefined light horizon) not been present Murdoch might have felt far less confident. He may have been standing lookout on the port bridge wing as a measure against the ship turning toward bigger danger than it was dodging. He might have slowed, called the captain, or even rotated the bow by double or triple the 22.5 course change reported by Hichens. None of that happened because of the alleged “haze alerted the lookouts too soon.

--- David G. Brown

 

[Rob Lawes]

It always amazes me how much weight is placed on Scarrott's memory of eight minutes. This is usually proceeded by "we know...." as if Scarrott's statement is fact.

I'd liken it to 20 people identifying the man holding the bloody knife and standing over the body, having seen him stab his victim 12 times, as the man who committed the crime while one witness thought it may have been Ghandi. Only in this scenario the police set out to prove it was Ghandi.

 

[Aaron_2016]

It always amazes me how much weight is placed on Scarrott's memory of eight minutes. This is usually proceeded by "we know...." as if Scarrott's statement is fact.

I'd liken it to 20 people identifying the man holding the bloody knife and standing over the body, having seen him stab his victim 12 times, as the man who committed the crime while one witness thought it may have been Ghandi. Only in this scenario the police set out to prove it was Ghandi.

Boxhall claimed the collision was felt a mere 10 second walking distance from his door.

Either Boxhall was right and Scarrott was wrong, or:
Scarrott was right and Boxhall was wrong, or:
Both of them were right which emphasises what the other survivors had heard Fleet say i.e. That multiple warnings were made and ignored.


One possible explanation could be related to what Captain Lord of the Californian said - "I was sometimes mistaking the stars low down on the horizon for steamer’s lights." I recall the lookouts on the Parisian did the same thing and kept misreporting to their bridge that there were ships on the horizon when in fact they were just stars. Perhaps Fleet and Lee had done exactly the same as both other ships, but they were too ashamed to admit their mistakes at the public Inquiry and were afraid of digging themselves deeper into trouble. One can only speculate. For instance Fleet told the US Inquiry that they did not ring 7 bells at 11.30pm because "we generally miss it" but Reginald Lee told the UK Inquiry afterwards that they did ring 7 bells. It feels like the US Inquiry was just a rehearsal for the crew to weed out and correct the mistakes that were said. As Lightoller described the US Inquiry as being of "little consequence" and that the main British Inquiry was simply a "whitewash" to protect the interests of the company and the board of trade.


It is odd that Scarrott was never asked if the weather was clear or hazy when he saw the iceberg pass the ship. Since Mr. Shiers testified that there was a "thick haze" when he saw the iceberg pass by. Perhaps the British Inquiry did not want to dig too deep on the subject and were happy to hear and dismiss Reginald Lee's claim that there was a dense haze and did not press harder on the subject for fear of learning that he was right after all.


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[David G. Brown]

Scarrott's Testimony

I quote Scarrott because he was: a.) on the ship; b.) in a position to hear the bell; c.) a seaman looking forward to that 12th bell and, thus, worried about time; d. he did not give a precise answer, but a good-faith estimate as honest people do; and e.) because what he said fits into the events surrounding the accident of which he had no knowledge.

Those who do not quote Scarrott or belittle his testimony do so because it goes against the convention wisdom of how the accident took place. I find it curious that he alone is attacked so vehemently, but only by those who have blind faith in the duration from first sighting to impact on the iceberg being 35 to 50 seconds.

This sort of discarding unpleasant testimony has no place in academic research either serious or, as in this case, for pure enjoyment of the exercise. As Sam has said, "We are all entitled to our opinions, but no one is entitled to his own facts." I am simply saying that we either accept testimony of all witnesses equally, or we discard the whole lot -- American and British testimonies -- and make up our own stories. Maybe the ship did have a cargo of unicorns and winged monkeys did fly out of funnel #4 to announce dinner. In a world where we can pick and choose our facts such nonsense has as much standing as eyewitness accounts.

Aaron's Drawing (Immediately Above)

While it is well done and with good intention, Arron's drawing illustrates precisely what I referred to in my first graph of this post when I wrote of "events surrounding the accident." Missing from his drawing are the IMM/WSL duties required every half hour 'round the clock. Specifically, the checking of the steering compass against the standard. The rule specified every 30 minutes which means every half hour no matter how the clocks were set back to account for the extra 47 minutes acquired by steaming westward that day.

As noted many times, for the two crew watches to split those extra minutes evenly required that "crew midnight" for change of watch purposes had to happen 24 minutes after 2400 that night -- 2424 hours. Given the multiple testimonies that the accident took place 20 minutes prior to that change of watch, then the time of impact was 2424 hours minuts 20 minutes or 2404 hours. (NO that's not 4 minutes after midnight because midnight would have come at 2447 hours in April 14th unaltered time.

At 2400 in unaltered time Boxhall was required to work with Moody on the required compass checks. That puts him coming out of the officers quarters at 2358 or so. A minute later at 2359 by regulation he would have joined quartermaster Olliver on the standard compass platform. The checks and other work would have been done, and Boxhall would have been back on his way forward to perform another duty required of the fourth officer every hour -- going the round of the starboard watch men under his command. All of this took some time, about five to eight minutes (sound familiar?).

Where was Boxhall headed? On a "rope yarn Sunday," the crew did only work necessary for the safe operation of the ship. (God rested, sailors just worked less on the 7th day.) He would have been headed down the companionway opposite to the captains quarters (again, sound familiar?) to B deck and then he would have crossed to port where another ladder led down to the well deck. Directly forward he would have found his men maintaining the coffee watch and waiting for 8 bells and a warm bed. By the time he skipped down to B deck we have used a good deal of Scarrott's "five to eight minutes" between warning bell and impact. Simply put, if Titanic were a well-run ship then Scarrott must have been telling the truth even though we have accounted for his time estimate by using events in which he played no part.

-- David G. Brown


PS -- No, I don't know where the put Titanic's zoo with all those flying monkeys. Ask the woman in the pointed black hat. If you can't find her, then have a good chuckle and remember this is an academic exercise just for enjoyment. Anyone who takes it too seriously should be sent to grease the anchor bearing and come back with a bucket of prop wash.

 

[Aaron_2016]

Agreed. One should always keep an open mind and never dismiss any of the survivor accounts. They are all relevant and important in the study of the Titanic disaster which is a never-ending story with many branches of interest. After all, they were actually there, and we were not. What I find baffling is that a number of survivors saw tons of ice which had fallen on the forward well deck. Yet Boxhall apparently saw none of that and walked right passed it, went below and saw a man holding a piece of ice and wondered where he got it from. He looked over the side and saw a low lying growler and he claimed that he could not even swear to actually seeing the fatal iceberg and heard afterwards from Moody that they had struck an iceberg. His evidence contradicted itself so much that one can paint a number of versions. Like piecing together two jigsaws that are mixed together. One true, the other false, and figuring out which one will lead us to the real picture.

 

[David G. Brown]

The problem with eyewitness testimony is separating out the truth from honest memories and separating those from falsehoods. "Truth" is testimony that can be corroborated by the iron on the bottom or by other tested references recognized as accurate. An honest memory is not a lie even if a falsehood so long as the witness believed he/she/it was speaking the truth to the best of their abilities. Falsehoods, of course, are deliberate lies told to alter the historical record. What makes things particularly difficult are people like Fourth Officer Boxhall who seems to have spoken truthfully and also told falsehoods in different parts of his testimonies. When was he being angel? when devil?

-- David G. Brown

 

[Jim Currie]

The “haze” allegedly seen by the lookouts and even some passengers is a curiosity within the Titanic story that tantalizes the best of researchers. However, it did not make any difference to the outcome of the evening? I am of the opinion that if anything it helped see the fatal berg sooner than otherwise would have been the case. This means the haze more helped than hindered vision that night and that's what caused the accident.

Consider that the lookouts saw the iceberg as a “black mass” or silhouette in what should have been plenty of time to avoid disaster. We know from crewman Scarrott and the actions of Boxhall that the three strikes on the crow’s nest bell came five to eight minutes prior to impact. Surely, Titanic was nimble enough to have dodged the berg in that period of time.

Quartermaster Hichens stated the ship turned left two points (requiring starboard helm in 1912 parlance) prior to impact. He obviously assumed this course change was part of a manueuver to avoid “the berg.” Boxhall’s testimony weakly supports him on the left turn. Despite a 22.5 degree change in heading, lookouts Fleet and Lee still observed the ship was pointed straight at the fatal berg which was now in close quarters with the bow.

Although the numbers used were admittedly rough approximations, I found that an iceberg apparently off the bow at a distance of two miles could have been up to 900 feet left of the ship’s course and still been “dead ahead” requiring three bell strokes. Six minutes later, that berg would have been about 22 to 24 degrees left of the ship’s course. It was possible that the two point left turn (allegedly “hard a-starboard”) actually pointed the ship at the deadly berg. Or, probably more likely, the original “black mass” was passed to starboard and the two-point course change headed Titanic at a second iceberg at “in extremis” range.

Either way, he lookout’s 3-bell signal would have more reassured than alarmed Murdoch who would have been aware of the 2-point course change. He would have seen little or no need for any other emergency actions. Titanic in his mind would have been turning away from the reported danger. Or, that’ the way he may have perceived things until that monstrous chunk of ice was fine on the starboard bow and closing at 22 knots.

Had the “haze” (using the word as an undefined light horizon) not been present Murdoch might have felt far less confident. He may have been standing lookout on the port bridge wing as a measure against the ship turning toward bigger danger than it was dodging. He might have slowed, called the captain, or even rotated the bow by double or triple the 22.5 course change reported by Hichens. None of that happened because of the alleged “haze alerted the lookouts too soon.

--- David G. Brown

Hello David.

We have been over this before but for the benefit of those who are yet to be bored by it, allow me to point out one or two things.

For a start off, Scarrot did not say the three bell warning came 5 to 8 minutes before impact this is exactly what he said:
"337. Do you know what time that was? A: - Not to be exact I do not, but it was round about half-past eleven."
343. How soon did you feel this vibration after you heard the three strikes on the gong?
A: As I did not take much notice of the three strikes on the gong, I could hardly recollect the time; but I should think it was - well, we will say about five or eight minutes; it seemed to me about that time.

The man was so obviously guessing, David. You cannot build evidence on a guess. He was giving evidence 18 days after the event and after a previous Inquiry and a mountain of press reports had provided a mountain of information to play with. But let's suppose he had a photographic memory and, keeping in mind a time interval of no more than 8 minutes, examine Scarrot's next revalations.

"344. Where were you at the time? A: - Just about the forecastle head.
345. Did you remain there? A: - No.
346. Where did you go? A: - I rushed down to tell my mate that was in the "bath room just at the bottom of the ladder. He asked me to give him a call if anything was doing.
347. What did you do after that? A: - Rushed on deck with the remainder of those that were in the forecastle. The shock caused everybody to turn out, and we came on deck to see what was the cause of the vibration."

So the picture is one of Scarrot mooching about under the forecastle head when he heard the three bells and felt the vibration. Since he had no idea of what was going on at that moment, what did he tell his mate?
Perhaps it was "Seems we have hit something, mate better get out of there. All hell's about to descend on the Watch". Then he rushes up on deck in time to see the ice which had been dislodged from the berg. His next revelation is up to speed with the previous ones.

"351. Tell me what you saw. A: - When we came up, that was before the boatswain's call, we saw a large quantity of ice on the starboard side on the fore-well deck, and I went and looked over the rail there and I saw an iceberg that I took it we had struck. It would be abaft the beam then - abaft the starboard beam.
352. Was it close to? A: - No, it seemed the ship was acting on her helm and we had swung clear of the iceberg.
353. But how far away from your beam was the iceberg, a ship's length or two ships' length? A: - Not a ship's length.
354. You speak of this ship as if answering her helm - as if answering under which helm? A: - Under the starboard helm - under the port helm."

This guy had been reading too many "Penny Dreadfuls". Let's re-cap

1. He hears a 3 bell warning 5 or 8 minutes before he feels what seems like the vibrations caused by a vessel going astern. He did not feel the initial impact.
2. He rushes down and tells a mate. who is in the bog, about vibrations that in his own words "The shock caused everybody to turn out,". So he was telling his mate about something the poor man already knew about.
3. He rushes up on deck and sees the iceberg abaft the beam, to starboard, not more than a ship's length away and seeming to act under hard a port helm, i.e., the stern slewing away from the berg.

So we have, according to Scarrott's uncertain memory, a period of 8 minutes between 3 warning bells and vibration matching that felt when a ship's engines run astern.
Despite Scarrott not feeling the impact, it was felt slightly in the engine room at the other end of the ship.
We know from Trimmer Dillon that the engines started running astern, about 2 minutes after impact and ran astern for 2 minutes after that astern for another 2 minutes before they stopped. When a ship which is over 884 feet long starts her engines astern, a great deal of cavitation takes place, this results in an unmistakable flexing vibration at the ship's extremities. I suggest to you David that Scarrot did not hear the bells but the rest of his story except for the stern slewing away from the berg, matched the stories of other witnesses.