Michael H. Standart
Member
Subject barred.
Helen Loraine Allison/Kramer - Survivor TITANIC Mystery
- Thread starter thedebrina
- Start date
Arun Vajpey
Member
I hope I won't be chastised for rejuvenating a thread about unpopular and obviously fraudulent subject, but one of the younger members mentioned the silly Helen Kramer claim in another thread today, which reminded me of something that I have often wondered about.
Now that DNA testing has put paid to the ridiculous survival story concocted by Helen Kramer in 1940 and later carried on by her granddaughter Debrina Woods, would one be rubbing salt on a would if one wonders what prompted that claim in the first place?
What I am trying to say is that when Helen Kramer made the original claim in 1940, interest in the Titanic was probably close to its lowest level for the past 109 years. The First World War, roaring twenties, Wall Street Crash, the great depression and the rise of Fascism in Europe had temporarily relegated the Titanic into a rather obscure corner of history. So, it seems to me that for a hitherto unknown woman to suddenly throw in such a ridiculous claim (which also involved secret 'survival' of Thomas Andrews as a Dr Jekyll turned into a Mr Hyde
), someone must have instigated her into it. Since the claimant would have to know at least a few details about the Allison family that were not in the public record, that "someone" must have been a person who had known the family previously, perhaps even on board the Titanic.I stress that it is only a theory that has crossed my mind a few times and not based on any evidence. And I am not thinking of Mildred Brown or Alice Cleaver; perhaps another lady who would have been in her mid-60s in 1940.
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Thomas Krom
Member
The whole Helen Kramer story caused the Allison family lot’s of pain and stress. After the DNA results came out and confirmed the colossal fraud that haunted the Allison family for years they wanted to be left in peace.
There is documented evidence supplied by a Miss McCully that Mrs. Kramer was born as Evangeline Irene Lee Hyde and married in the early 1920s to a Dr. Lester Robert Walsh and had a son with him named Lester Leo John Walsh in 1922, this was her first marriage. If Helen Lorraine Allison were alive she would have been 12 to 13 years old in 1922, too young to be married and have children.
We sadly do not know exactly what was going on in Mrs. Kramer’s head when she made the claim and I believe we will never know if anyone ever visited her to inspire her story that had any ties to the disaster.
To cite Mr. Standard above me: “The DNA has spoken, the claim is falsified. Game, set, match, done, closed thread. Enough is enough.” Helen Lorraine Allison was one of the 1496 victims of that fateful night, being sadly the only child in 1912 standards who died that fateful night (In modern standards José Pedro Carraú-Esteves (1894-1912) can be counted as a child victim as well, who was 17).
There is documented evidence supplied by a Miss McCully that Mrs. Kramer was born as Evangeline Irene Lee Hyde and married in the early 1920s to a Dr. Lester Robert Walsh and had a son with him named Lester Leo John Walsh in 1922, this was her first marriage. If Helen Lorraine Allison were alive she would have been 12 to 13 years old in 1922, too young to be married and have children.
We sadly do not know exactly what was going on in Mrs. Kramer’s head when she made the claim and I believe we will never know if anyone ever visited her to inspire her story that had any ties to the disaster.
To cite Mr. Standard above me: “The DNA has spoken, the claim is falsified. Game, set, match, done, closed thread. Enough is enough.” Helen Lorraine Allison was one of the 1496 victims of that fateful night, being sadly the only child in 1912 standards who died that fateful night (In modern standards José Pedro Carraú-Esteves (1894-1912) can be counted as a child victim as well, who was 17).
Arun Vajpey
Member
Of course. Even before the DNA results were announced, most of us believed that the Helen Kramer claim was a colossal fraud, aimed solely at a large slice of the family fortune, despite Debrina Woods' pathetic assertions to the contrary. The test only confirmed it.
Not quite. She was the only First Class child victim. There were 52 others, I believe.
True. But given the events and time frames involved, I have a feeling (and nothing more) that someone did.
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Thomas Krom
Member
I meant to say "the only first class child", which I sadly forgot to add.
Michael H. Standart
Member
Why pretend to be somebody your not? I can't speak to people's motives because I'm not telepath, but you can find some hints at what they say and do. Some genuinely believe their own claims or the claims they're advocating on behalf of friends or relatives. I've seen Ms. Woods for example say something about taking her "rightful place" within the family, although I have to wonder what they think their rightful place is or what they hope to access. After all, the Allison family's standing and fortunes are not what they were.
Some are in fact fortune seekers or they want some sort of status and standing which would go along with any claim to fame they assert.
Whatever their motives, Titanic passenger/crew and relatives imposters are all and sundry and have been around since 1912.
Whatever their motives, it's just there!
Some are in fact fortune seekers or they want some sort of status and standing which would go along with any claim to fame they assert.
Whatever their motives, Titanic passenger/crew and relatives imposters are all and sundry and have been around since 1912.
Whatever their motives, it's just there!
Steven Christian
Member
I read thru this entire thread. Interesting. She seems to be doubling down on her claim with her latest update on her website. Didn't look at her facebook page. Maybe my loss but not a fan of FB. Anyway as others have pointed out..whats the motivation? History? ...a piece of the pie (family fortune). I'll leave that up to others to decide. I happen to believe in the science of DNA testing so until proven otherwise I have to go with that. All that I have read over the years about this is that the poor little girl went down with the Titanic. Mostly because of issues with her mom and dad but that's for another thread. A couple of news articles if anyone is interested. Cheers.
britishheritage.com
www.newser.com
One Of The Titanic's Last Mysteries Solved
One of the final mysteries left surrounding the Titanic has finally been solved. How much do you know about this case?
britishheritage.com
DNA Tests Clear Up Titanic's 'Last Mystery'
Did 2-year-old Loraine Allison perish in 1912 ... or not?
lucykathleenAnnaSmith
Member
what i read was that the hadd stays on starbord side . the go not from boar why the had seeks the baby brother. the nanny had him saved . she was in another life bord....
Arun Vajpey
Member
Reading her posts on this thread, Debrina Woods comes across as someone who believes that if she persisted with her fairy tales long enough, people might start believing them. Notice how she never gave a straight answer to any relevant question about evidence, DNA results etc but went on and on irrelevantly about how "successful" her campaign was.
I have no doubt that when the original claim was made by Helen Kramer back in 1940, access to the Allison family fortune was the prime motive. There was very likely a prime cut to be set aside for the instigator in case the claim had succeeded.
Steven Christian
Member
If the newspaper articles are accurate it should have ended when she claimed Mr. Hyde was Thomas Andrews hiding on a farm or whatever. And also when she said she was entitled to the Allison's wealth in 1992. The motivation is pretty obvious after reading more on it. Plus the thing with the ashes raises red flags for me also. You think one would wait until there was proof in your favor which there wasn't. This whole story seems like a waste of a good bandwidth to me. Cheers.
Arun Vajpey
Member
It sounds ridiculous, doesn't it? I suppose the tabloids of 1940 needed something like that to get public attention. The larger papers probably had better access to what was happening in Europe at the time and since the tabloids could not compete in that field, they would have been nosing around for garbage like the Helen Kramer claim to sell their wares.
As I have said before, it is the timing of that claim that makes me think that there was someone behind Helen Kramer in 1940. At that time, interest in the Titanic must have been close to at its lowest in its 109 year history and since the claimant or her instigator would not have known about the later resurgence right up to contemporary times, they probably thought that there was a chance they could get away with it. (An analogy now would be if I told you that I was the heir of a rich passenger who died in the 1977 Tenerife air disaster and so was entitled to their family fortune, using the opportunity that interest in it is now minimal; I would not know if, for some unknown reason, that accident would become famous again in 20 years from now)
Now that DNA tests have well and truly buried the false claim, I wonder if the current Allison descendants would think of some sort of legal action against Debrina Woods? I know that they must be tired of the whole sordid affair and glad that the chapter is closed, but reading just Woods' posts on ET gets my blood pressure up even as an unrelated third party observer. I can only imagine what it must have been like for them all these years, especially with that dreadful campaign about "Titanic's Last Mystery", "Morrisburg/Chesterville Presentation" etc. Since she based all that on a packet of lies including claims to possess non-existent records etc, IMO she is criminally culpable. Frankly, if I had been an Allison family member, I would now want to teach Debrina Woods and her kind a legal lesson that they would not forget.
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Steven Christian
Member
I'm not sure what the legal ramifications are. The DNA results pretty much blew any claim out of the water. Some people don't know when to fold their hand. But I agree that the Allison clan are probably tired of the whole mess and just want to move on. I don't know much about them. Or even if they are still a wealthy family. She should just give it up and leave them alone. I'm sure a good lawyer could come up with something if they wanted to go that route. Cheers.
Arun Vajpey
Member
I can understand what you are saying. But the problem is that people like Debrina Woods know that if they persist and push their false claim long enough, there is not only a greater (if still outside) chance of it succeeding but the "opposition" would be too dejected to legally contest the inconvenience caused and costs incurred when the claim is finally proven to be false. As in this case, the fraudsters bank on that tendency.
I won't be surprised if there are instances involving bogus claims that were very difficult to disprove, where the dejected victims decided to get out of their misery by offering to settle the dispute out of court. That is why I strongly feel that fraudulent claimants and their supporters should be severely punished.
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