Herbert Stone's Disappearance and George Stewart's Obituary from Archive Newspapers.

[Rob Lawes]

Hi Julian

Regarding Gibson and his RNR commissioning, the rank Sub Lieutenant was introduced in the mid 19th century to replace the term (Masters) Mate, for newly qualified Midshipman. I believe it may be possible that an MN Mates certificate would have been enough to hold the RNR rank and then he would have achieved promotion to Lieutenant RNR on achieving his Masters.

Gibson would have been expected to have completed 12 months familiarisation with the Regular RN, usually on a Capital Ship, in order to understand RN practices such as gunnary drills etc, before qualifying for his "Wavey Navy" sleeve braids.

I'll try and do some more digging when I get back from work.

 

[Jim Currie]

Hi Julian

Regarding Gibson and his RNR commissioning, the rank Sub Lieutenant was introduced in the mid 19th century to replace the term (Masters) Mate, for newly qualified Midshipman. I believe it may be possible that an MN Mates certificate would have been enough to hold the RNR rank and then he would have achieved promotion to Lieutenant RNR on achieving his Masters.

Gibson would have been expected to have completed 12 months familiarisation with the Regular RN, usually on a Capital Ship, in order to understand RN practices such as gunnary drills etc, before qualifying for his "Wavey Navy" sleeve braids.

I'll try and do some more digging when I get back from work.

That is correct. Rob. Equivalent RNR Ranks were, in my day as follows:
1. Apprentice...Midshipman.
2. 2nd. Mate...Sub Leutenant.
3. Mate....Leutenant.
4. Master....Leutenant Commander.

On retirement, you could expect to be promoted a rank up. Thus. for senior ranks:
1. a Sub-L would retire as a Leutenant
2. a Leutenant....L. Commander.
3 a L, Commander to Commander.

RN Regs. in the 1950's stated that an MN Officer who had left the service before the age of 28 would not receive a commission but had to start at the bottom of the ladder. i.e....a Deck Officer had to enter as an AB. I know this for a fact since in 1961, a friend of mine who had a Master's Certificate presented himself at the RNR Headquarters, Eglington Toll, Glasgow and was told he could only join as an AB. He subsequently joined the RM Reserve...as a Squaddie.

 

[Rob Lawes]

Thanks for the info Jim.

With regards to the last paragraph, the same sort of absurd rules exist today. I left the Andrew as a Chief Petty Officer with 22 years service. Had I joined the RNR in a seamless transfer I could retain my rank. As I discharged from the RN, if I wanted to then enlist in the RNR I would have to start right back at the bottom. No thanks.

 

[Robert T. Paige]

Thanks for the info Jim.

With regards to the last paragraph, the same sort of absurd rules exist today. I left the Andrew as a Chief Petty Officer with 22 years service. Had I joined the RNR in a seamless transfer I could retain my rank. As I discharged from the RN, if I wanted to then enlist in the RNR I would have to start right back at the bottom. No thanks.

Thanks Jim and Rob -

The situation was something similar in the USN. I left my active duty as a Second Class Petty Officer with 4 years service. If I had re-enlisted or joined an active Naval Reserve unit I would have been promoted to First Class Petty Officer, having passed all the requirements and examinations.

But there were no programs at the nearest Naval Station for my rating as an "ET" (Electronic Technician) I would have to take a demotion to Third Class Petty Officer and start over in the program for "AT" (Aviation Electronics Technician) since the nearest Naval Station was the Naval Air Station at Grand Prairie, Texas.

Instead, I was placed in the " Inactive Ready Reserve" for 4 years (as an "ETR" - Electronic Technician with Radar experience and qualifications .)

Luckily I was never called up so I finally got my Good Conduct Discharge 8 years after my initial Enlistment Date. That's how it was in the USN.

 

[Jim Currie]

Thanks for the info Jim.

With regards to the last paragraph, the same sort of absurd rules exist today. I left the Andrew as a Chief Petty Officer with 22 years service. Had I joined the RNR in a seamless transfer I could retain my rank. As I discharged from the RN, if I wanted to then enlist in the RNR I would have to start right back at the bottom. No thanks.

Spot-on, Rob. The other nasty bit is (in my case) that in the event of hostilities, you could be called back up until you were 55 years old. If I remember correctly, the "Big Andrew" is the same?

 

[Rob Lawes]

Yes indeed Jim

I had my annual reminder to provide my contact details arrive in the post last week containing a lovely threat of legal action if I didn't return it within 14 days. Oh, and a few paragraphs in the letter begging me to join the reserves.

 

[Jim Currie]

Ah well! They can't catch me now. Korea and Suez were my "baptisms." Although, as a Civvy, I worked with out American cousins post Yom Kippur and during Desert Storm. The last was not of my choosing.

 

[Robert T. Paige]

Spot-on, Rob. The other nasty bit is (in my case) that in the event of hostilities, you could be called back up until you were 55 years old. If I remember correctly, the "Big Andrew" is the same?

Thanks again, Jim , for an interesting point .

You learn a lot on this website on other forms of Naval Life !

I don't know if there were any age limits on being called up in the USN Inactive Ready Reserve.

I do remember, just before I got my "separation" ( back then you didn't get your discharge until completion of 8 years - 8 years active duty or 4 years active duty plus 4 years in an active reserve unit or Inactive ready reserve status)
I do remember some persons being called up from the reserves "to replace those of us being "separated."

I was also the Senior Petty Officer in charge of the "O-E Division " ( Electronic Technicians in Operations Department, Electronics ) during the last 6 months of my active duty. We had a rapid turn-over each year......Zero re-enlistments.

Another little quirk in the USN at that time.
The ET ratings were first in the Engineering Department as the "E-R Division" but later changed to " O-E Division" in the Operations Department.

In closing this with one more bit of trivia.:
In the United States Army a "Division" is a very large number of soldiers.
In the United States Navy a "Division " is a very small number of sailors.
We never had more than 15 in our group which included both rated and non-rated personnel.

P.S. And Korea was my baptism.

 

[Julian Atkins]

So are we all agreed that if Gibson got his second mates certificate in 1912, he would have become a RNR sub-lieutenant?

And Paul Lee's reference to Gibson passing his 2nd masters certificate in 1912 is inaccurate?

Cheers,
Julian

 

[Bob Read]

I personally would find it hard to bet against Paul Lee unless I had incontrovertible evidence.

 

[Jim Currie]

So are we all agreed that if Gibson got his second mates certificate in 1912, he would have become a RNR sub-lieutenant?

And Paul Lee's reference to Gibson passing his 2nd masters certificate in 1912 is inaccurate?

Cheers,
Julian

Not necssarily, Julian. Gibson would finish his 4 year Indentures shortly after the Titanic affair. Then and only then could he present himself to the BoT as a candidate for the the 2nd Mate Examinations. If he passed these and then applied for an RNR Commission, he would be granted one if he met the requirements of the Navy. He could not have gained his 2M(FG) or Commission with a bad report from any of the Captains he served under. Each Captain was required to produce such a report when an Apprentice was discharged from his ship. The bit I can't get my head around is Gibson receiving a DR. He would not have been sailing as an AB unless his Certificate had been cancelled by the BoT.

 

[Julian Atkins]

Hi Jim,

As you know, Harland has posted here in post 27 what is contained in Paul Lee's book about Gibson's subsequent awful career. I have made an educated guess as to the source of this information, which can be checked against Leslie Harrison's archive at the Liverpool Maritime Museum (which after being unavailable for awhile due to building work now appears to be accessible again - though the new online search facility is useless for this!)

Other lines of research are available to double check things, dependent upon what ships logs and crew lists are kept at the NMM/Kew, plus of course War Service records which have not received the haphazard 'weeding out' of Merchant Navy records in the 1970s and (to me) an inexplicable transfer of much archive material to Canada of the British Merchant Navy.

Cheers,
Julian

 

[Julian Atkins]

I just came across this, which apparently has only very recently been posted online...

George Frederick STEWART (1)

www.militaryimages.net

The pic of Stewart may be amiss on the above; it is nothing like Stewart was in 1912, but clearly a descendant of Stewart is involved, and presumably knows nothing of his predecessor's involvement with Titanic and The Californian. But worth following up. All the other details tie up in the above link and Harland's research of newspaper articles, and much else.

(I didn't know till the above that one of Stewart's sons, in the RAF, was killed in WW2).

Cheers,

Julian

 

[Julian Atkins]

https://www.militaryimages.net/media/george-frederick-stewart-2.141420/full

The above link is well worth clicking on, as a primary source document, only recently posted online, and adds to and confirms to what Harland posted.

Cheers,

Julian

 

[Julian Atkins]

Bump! (If bumping is permitted by The Moderators)