How much time between spotting of iceberg and the collision

Roy, I was answering Michael's question on how Scarrott was able to distinguish one iceberg from all the others in the morning. The answer is that he saw the berg at the time of the collision and gave a pretty detailed description at that. The same berg as described by Scarrott was described by 3 other people. The berg was somewhat isolated and had two peaks, one higher than the other.
 
Boxhalls testimony is suspect. As Inger Sheil has pointed out many a times, and correctly so, Boxhall didn't see anything. He was walking to the bridge, his testimony is by his own admission an estimate. Boxhall didn't see the berg until it approached the starboard bridge wing. How the ship came into that situation was pure speculation on his part. He does testify that he heard the order. But it is hard for me to believe that he heard that from where he claimed to be with a 22 knot head wind. I have no doubt that he heard in order, but what it was and what it was in relation to, he can not say with any certainty because he was not on the bridge.

In addition, Boxhall has no vantage point. He has the raised bridge wing bulwark to contend with for his forward view as well as the 22 knot head wind. He can't see anything until he gets to the bridge, and here in lies the problem.

Boxhalls testimony is specific and describes very well the location of the majority of the damage, yet the man says he was not on the bridge. This specific testimony is just his thoughts or his assumptions...not what he saw or heard. He describes the accident fairly well, but a little to well for someone who didn't see anything.

I disagree with the no port helm theory as I understand it from above. Titanc's forward motion required that the rudder be in the neutral position or over to the right directly before and during the majority of contact in order for what happened to have happened. The additional question then becomes how the ship came to be in the position that she was in prior to the accident.

The object damaged the right side of the vessel, which means according to the lookouts the ship had to have moved left...or the looks didn't see the berg where they thought they did, or there where to bergs..or...or...or...

Point being, damage as Sam states is confined to a relatively small area on the forward portion of the ship. The questions are now (from a forensic point of view):

1. How did the ship meet the object??

2. What was the ships reaction to contact??

3. Where orders given and what where there result??

4. What is the end result??

Boy this just gets tougher and tougher.
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>>I give it a slightly different reading, Sam;<<

So did I but Sam answered the question, so I'm cool with it.
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>>This specific testimony is just his thoughts or his assumptions...not what he saw or heard. He describes the accident fairly well, but a little to well for someone who didn't see anything.<<

I was about to make that same point. For somebody who was supposed *not* to have seen anything and who was supposed to have arrived on the bridge after the fact, Joe Boxhall gives the best description of the accident of all of the surviving witnesses. These *could* be little more then anomolies in the testimony and the gaps *could* be the result of questions that were never asked and which he had the good sense not to volunteer.

In point of fact, that may explain some other gaps as well. Porting the helm just befor impact and the ship actually being under port helm (Turning to starboard by 1912 conventions) is the only way I can think of that damage can be confined to the bow while sparing the stern. (Unless that shelf broke away at a certain point as I mooted earler.)

While porting the helm would be the sensible thing to do under the circumstances, to the non-mariner who doesn't understand why this is so, it would appear as if the ship was deliberately turned in to the iceberg. (That this would prevent an even worse accident would probably be lost on such people.)

Would you be anxious to explain that to an investigator?
 
Yes, Boxhall did not see what the ship did or the berg when it struck as he was walking to the bridge, but he did hear a few things on the way to and see a few things after he arrived there.

Boxhall claims to have heard the 3 bells. Where he was when he heard them is another story. In 1912 he said he was just coming out of the officer's quarters. In 1962 he said he was in his cabin drinking tea, which if true, one can understand why he would leave that detail out when testifying in 1912. He said he heard Murdoch give the order "Hard-astarboard" and heard the telegraph ring. It may be entirely possible that he did. Murdoch would have yelled the order out so that it would be heard by Hichens and Moody who were in an enclosed wheelhouse. (And sound is carried with the relative wind.) He said in 1912 he saw the position of the telegraphs when he came onto the bridge, "Full speed astern, both." In 1962 he said Murdoch told Smith he reversed the port engine. He said he saw Murdoch closing the WTD switch when Capt Smith came up from behind him and asked Murdoch what happened, etc.

There are things he also apparently left out like the hard-aport order that Olliver claimed he heard as the berg was passing aft of the bridge. So either you choose to discount what Boxhall said he saw and heard or accept that there is some basis for some of it. If you want to discount some, if not all, of his testimony, then I think the burden is to show where it conflicts with what someone else said, that something he said is physically not possible, or that he left out something that we can fill in from others to get a more complete picture.

In my opinion, we have many pieces of the puzzle. We are just having a difficult time putting them all together. Everyone who tries gets a different picture. Throwing out some pieces may leave you with a picture that you like, but it may not be the picture of what really happened, or even a complete picture at that. If you have to create missing pieces, you need to show how they can be backed up. If your missing piece is in conflict with an existing piece, the burden is on you to show why the existing piece should be discarded.

The interesting thing to me in all this is the search for that perfect fit. Unfortunately, it will never happen.
 
After the rescue, they had days aboard the Carpathia. They knew there would be an Inquiry, if not actually two, and they had the reputation of perished comrades to look after, not to mention their own futures (a relatively futile consideration, but they weren't to know that then).

You'd have had to be super-human not to have tried to put it all together on the Carpathia, relatively coherently, and then sing off the same hymn-sheet. I'm not saying anyone deliberately lied, but Inquiries can only be rather blunt instruments when seeking the truth. Look at modern ones. The very fact of being summoned before an Inquiry would make anyone extremely wary. Lawyers and politicians in charge, who had no idea of a seaman's life and problems, with an agenda which is deliberately obscure, and probably political? I'd certainly feel that way. As Sam says, who's going to admit to drinking tea at the critical moment? Much better to say what you really believed to have happened, even if you are stretching it a bit, and you might be wrong. Boxhall was in a very difficult position - he was in the vicinity, and the only surviving officer from the Bridge, as Lowe and Lightoller weren't yet there. It must have been hair-raising, with Senator Smith seeking to establish his reputation, and then Lord Mersey 'managing' the evidence, and looking for scapegoats who couldn't answer back. Sorting out the truth and the facts from this cauldron of fear and uncertainty is almost impossible. No wonder we're still at it nearly 90 years on.
 
Boxhall saw nothing, and what he heard was here say. The orders where not issued to him and he was not in the location where the orders where given, did not see them carried out and has only second hand information to guess about what they where in reference to, this according to his own admission.

Remeber that Boxhall sees the berg as it approachs the starboard side bridge wing, he does not know what Murdoch was reacting to, nor does he know what the situation was prior to his arrival on the bridge.

By today's standard Boxhalls testimony is useless, it proves nothing and only gives incomplete pieces of possible evidence. The fact that he does not mentions Oliver's version to me isn't necessarily suspect, mainly because he left out so many other things.

I find the 1962 interview interesting. If he was indeed in his cabin drinking tea and not on the bridge, that is an extreme case of derlication of duty (spelled WAY wrong), even in 1912. The ramifications are a billion times worse in today's standard. His version of walking from the officers quarters is far more believeable.

There is only one witness whose testimony regarding the actions taken is somewhat creditable, and that is Hitchens. He was issued an order which he carried out. Even this isn't very helpful. He does not know what the order was in reference to, or what Murdochs full intentions where (other then assuming and probably correctly that he was trying to avoid something). Outside of being issued this order (and after being directed to only discuss what happened prior to contact) he knows nothing.

Boxhall does describe remarkabley well the location of damage caused the berg and the ships reaction to the incident. Part of this probably because he did damage inspections and had the rest of the night and some other underway time before being required to testify. So either Boxhall saw more then he said he did, or was able to put all of the rest of the information that he got later that night into his theory and just so happened to be remarkabley close to what happened.

We really only know for certain a few things.

1. The ship hit an iceberg.

2. Hitchens was issued an order by Murdoch to put his helm hard a starboard.

3. The ship sank.

The rest is open to debate. My own theory uses pieces of Boxhalls testimony and discounts other portions but uses other testimony and basic seamanship and physics to come up with a theory. Which is all it is. But it comes some what close to what occured.

I think that there is more to Boxhalls story then any of us will ever know.

But this 2 point turn (the basis for this thread) seems to be the one "fact" of the story. Some version of it occured.
 
quote:

I find the 1962 interview interesting. If he was indeed in his cabin drinking tea and not on the bridge, that is an extreme case of derlication of duty (spelled WAY wrong), even in 1912. The ramifications are a billion times worse in today's standard. His version of walking from the officers quarters is far more believeable.
I don't understand what you mean by 'far more believable' - the 1912, 1959 and 1962 accounts he gave are consistent in that he had been in the officers quarters, and was moving from them to the bridge as the collision was underway. That there should be some differences in the accounts is understandable, as there is a gap of up to 60 years between them! As for 'dereliction of duty', this has been discussed here at length in other threads, and I've also gone over this territory and my own theories as to why he might have been in his cabin after what he described in both 1959 and 1962 as 'going around' or 'a tour' of the decks. The paraphrased report of his 1959 account does not mention tea, but rather that he had 'just looked into his cabin' when he heard the lookout sound three bells.

Boxhall developed pleurisy following the disaster that was so severe his evidence at the inquiry was curtailed. He was still feeling the effects on his return to the UK. I believe there may have been some underlying upper respiratory tract infection that he was suffering from that night, which - exacerbated by exposure in the lifeboats and stress - developed into full-blown pleurisy.​
 
Capt. Eric: How do know that Hichens received an order for hard-astarboard? Because he said so? Discount what boxhall said he heard, Hichens had a very good reason for coming up with that. He heard the 3 bells. He heard Moody take the phone call. He heard Moody repeat to Murdoch that an iceberg was right ahead. He learned that the ship was struck on the starboard side. He was at the wheel and since he lived and Murdoch and Moody both died, guess who will get the blame for steering the ship into an iceberg? Better say you were given an order to turn away from the berg instead of trying to explain why the only order you received was hard-aport which would turn ship into the berg. What Fleet and Lee saw could have been the relative bearing to the berg open to starboard as the ship got closer. This gave the impression of that the ship was turning to port. When it hit, the side of the berg where the peak was was 2 points off the port bow. Now Fleet tells this to Hichens on the Carpathia and Hichens decides that he best say he was given an order for hard-astarboard just before the crash. Boxhall buys into this story and adds the part about full speed astern. Even suggests that murdoch wanted to port around it but was too close. Olliver tells what heard after coming onto the bridge at the moment of collision. Never heard any previous order, just the hard-aport order which was carried out.

So you see, not only do not need two icebergs to make the accident, but you don't need a hard-astarboard order either.

OK, so why you ask did Murdoch not take action to avoid. Answer, misjudgement of how close the ship would come to the iceberg's side. He was in perfect position out on the right wing (assuming he was there) to see the bearing open up as the berg approach. Best thing to do, hold the course. A turn either way would cause contact. Problem was he did not expect an under ice spur extending about 50 feet or so into their path. The rest is history.

BTW, I not saying I believe this is what happened. Just a possibility.
 
Inger: I have always been bothered by the timing of events as described by Boxhall in the inquiries. The door from the officers quarters to the bridge was only about 60 feet. To walk that distance at an average walking rate would take less than 15 seconds, not counting the time to close the door behind you. But being in his cabin when the 3 bells were struck makes the time frame more believable. Time to get up and get on a coat, then get out of the cabin and close the door, get out onto the deck and close that door behind you, and now the seconds add up more reasonably.

Personally, I believe Boxhall was more candid in his later years. As for drinking tea, he probably would have gotten Murdoch's OK to do so after making the rounds. And who knows, maybe he was going to bring a cup for Murdoch when he finished. It was cold out there. My guess is the last thing he did before going to his cabin was attending to the standard compass about 11:30. He was probably the one who told Olliver that the lamps there needed to be trimmed which explains why Olliver was on the platform at the time the accident happened. But again, that is just a guess. Olliver's walk from the platform to the bridge would have taken about 50 seconds, and if Boxhall was in his cabin at the time of 3 bells, it could well have taken him about the same amount of time to get to the bridge.
 
Folks, I've been away doing money-making writing and getting boats in the water (no, not lifeboats).

You cannot make the conventional story fit together into a cohesive whole because the one-berg, hard a-starboard, 35 to 50 second time frame is poppycock created just to confuse things. Allow an example:

Boxhall's tea story is pure sea story. I'd use stronger words, but there are those who revere the man. He was a damned fine officer and a loyal one to boot. That explains the tea fabrication. But, if his story were true, he was admitting dereliction of duty that should have subjected him to criminal prosecution for material participation (by failure to do his duty)in the subsequent accident. He was on duty, which means Boxhall was legally and morally bound to be on deck. His cabin by definition was "below," and therefore off limits unless Boxhall had been formally relieved of duty--which he never claimed because it didn't happen.

Another absurdity in conventional wisdom:

The conventional story has built-in proof of its own improbability. It is impossible to put the obligatory left turn under starboard helm into context with a head-on approach to the fatal berg. It can't be done any more than you can strike a match on a wet cake of soap -- unless the hard-over maneuver was completed and the ship steadied up on a new course. A ship making a hard-left turn cannot strike an iceberg in the manner of Titanic--forefoot first--and not have damage along the entire side. Laws of physics rule here, not opinion.

And, conventional wisdom makes a fool of Murdoch:

If you accept the left-turn-starboard-bow strike, then you are absolutely forcing Murdoch to have turned left to dodge an object on the port bow. Even a junior officer would know better than that. Again, the conventional story has lead to an absurdity. Murdoch did not turn left for an object to his port.

Now for some rational thought:

There seems little doubt, however, that the ship did turn to port under hard-astarboard helm. Now, apply logic. If the physical evidence on the hull combined with the laws of physics require a head-on approach--as described by the lookouts--and, if Murdoch did not turn left to dodge something to his port, then what the hell did happen?

The answer is plain as the nose on J.P. Morgan. Titanic turned left two points (per Hichens) and steadied up aimed at the fatal berg. The ship struck and turned to starboard due to a combination of friction, Newtonian physics, engine orders, and port helm (per Olliver) to create damage in the pattern reported by various witnesses.

Now, why would Murdoch have turned left using a "hard a-starboard" helm order? Obviously, to dodge something else than the deadly iceberg. And, since as far as we know Titanic struck on only one iceberg, this object which caused Murdoch's helm order must have been passed without incident. That is, the object for which "hard a-starboard" was issued was not the object which the ship hit.

What sort of "objects" big enough to be a danger to Titanic were within range that night? We know of only icebergs. Yes icebergS. Look at the photos taken from Carpathia in the morning and read the descriptions of the survivors to find out how many bergs there were. BergS. Lots of 'em, plural.

All of the defences of conventional wisdom ignore the procedures and practices of operating a White Star Liner at sea. This is perhaps an honest oversight, but none-the-less it prevents an honest historical assessment of events. Quite simply, you have to know what each member of the bridge team should have been doing at the time of the accident. And, you have to understand how and why their actions would have influenced Murdoch's decisions and/or the accident.

At 11:30 p.m. Boxhall and Olliver should have been gone from the forebridge. By IMM/White Star regulation they had to be on the standard compass platform. And, Moody had to be in the wheelhouse with Hichens. All four men were to be engaged in steadying the ship by standard compass for the purpose of insuring accurate navigation. Please note that during the minutes leading up to the accident Olliver admitted to being on the platform while Boxhall waffled on this point. Tea in his room? Balderdash. Boxhall was on the platform doing his required duty. To think otherwise is to believe in fairy tales.

Scarrott's 6 to 8 minutes between the lookout's warning bell and impact fits perfectly into the timing of the compass evolution described in the above paragraph. George Behe unearthed considerable information about how the lookouts spoke of being ignored by the bridge. Some of that frustration seems to appear in their testimonies.

At about 22 knots, Titanic would have gone 2 to 3 miles during Scarrott's 6 to 8 minutes. This fits nicely the anticipated distance over which icebergs were expected to be seen by mariners.

The obvious conclusion is that Murdoch took note of the first iceberg upon the lookout's report. He took no action, however, because of the ongoing compass evolution. What Murdoch could not know because of the p-poor internal communications system was that the oil lamps in the standard compass needed trimming. An evolution that should have taken a minute or two became three times that long. Finally, Murdoch had no choice but to order a "hard a-starboard" turn to dodge the first berg.

It now becomes necessary to look again at the physics of the way ships maneuver. In a turn, the stern swings out. This means toward the object Murdoch was dodging. If he had begun his maneuver at a greater distance, he would not have required a "hard over" command. The use of hard over rudder indicates he needed a lot of turn quickly. The only reason for that would have been because the danger was close aboard. Using "hard over" for a close-aboard object invites swinging the stern into it, thereby defeating the avoidance maneuver. It follows, therefore, that Murdoch's call for "hard a-port" required an additional limitation on the angular rotation of the hull to prevent swinging the stern into harm's way.

Thanks to Hichens we know that Titanic completed about a two--point turn prior to impact. His knowledge of the exact rotation indicates he needed to know that information to obey Murdoch's orders. By confirming the degrees of the turn, Hichens unwittingly gave circumstantial evidence that Murdoch's full helm order was "hard a-starboard two points." Such an order would have satisfied the two requirements for successfully dodging a close aboard object--changing the heading and limiting the stern swing.

This leads back to what the lookouts saw, and gives a logical explanation for the discussion which took place between Fleet and Lee prior to Fleet's phoning the bridge. They saw the ship finally turn left to avoid the visible first berg and then the bow steadied up pointed at the second berg. There was no bell code for what they saw happening. Fleet had no choice but to use the telephone.

At this point we have to examine the descriptions of the fatal berg. The eyewitnesses were consistent in saying that it had a dark appearance as the ship approached. Then, it seemed to have a light outline around the dark mass of ice as it passed abeam. Finally, it appeared light in color (like other icebergs) as it went astern. This amazing color-changing iceberg wasn't really all that unusual, however. The descriptions are consistent with the appearance of an iceberg which has recently capsized. The underbelly now exposed would be black as the ship approached. A white edge would appear as it came abeam because the viewer would see both the old weathered (white) ice and the dark underbelly. Finally, as the ship passed the observer would see only the white weathered ice.

A capsized berg presenting its dark underbelly to the liner would have stood a good chance of not being perceived. However, that chance grows to an almost certainty if it were in close proximity to a brighter berg. The way the human eye works would almost guarantee that the second, darker spot would be unnoticed until the whiter first object was removed from the picture.

And, so hangs the tale. Titanic turned left to avoid one danger only to run over a second.

Boxhall was loyal. He knew what happened, but he stood by the company regulations against airing IMM/White Star problems in public. His absurd story of tea in his room is just one example. It was such a preposterous story that it cannot be considered a lie. But, he must have told someone exactly what happened. The proof was in the modifications to Olympic.

While it was in H&W's yard for Titanic-related refits, the standard compass was quietly moved from amidships to the more conventional location on the wheelhouse roof. Or, to be more precise, a new standard compass was installed above the wheelhouse. White Star ordered that the old compass and platform remain in position even though it was functionally useless. Britannic was built with only one standard compass above the wheelhouse--but an eyewash compass platform was added, most likely to avoid answering embarrassing questions.

-- David G. Brown
 
quote:

The obvious conclusion is that Murdoch took note of the first iceberg upon the lookout's report. He took no action, however, because of the ongoing compass evolution. What Murdoch could not know because of the p-poor internal communications system was that the oil lamps in the standard compass needed trimming. An evolution that should have taken a minute or two became three times that long. Finally, Murdoch had no choice but to order a "hard a-starboard" turn to dodge the first berg.
I know nothing about seamanship. However, the problem I have with the above statement is that it appears counter-intuitive. I am struggling to accept that a ship will be driven straight towards a known obstacle, to the point that an emergency evasive manoeuvre is required (hard a-starboard must be considered such, surely?) to avoid a collision. Furthermore, the purpose of the initial inaction was, it is alleged, to allow the completion of a compass check that was not, in itself, vital to the safety of the ship at that time. In other words, an unnecessary risk was taken to allow a non-vital task to take place. And all this was apparently happening whilst the bridge team knew they were amongst ice and therefore in some danger.

It just doesn't seem an "obvious conclusion" to me. The theory as presented makes Murdoch appear grossly derelict in his duty, never mind Boxhall and his 'tea'.​
 
>>The theory as presented makes Murdoch appear grossly derelict in his duty, never mind Boxhall and his 'tea'.<<

I don't know if I'd make that leap. If David is right, then it would appear to me that Murdoch was caught between something of a rock and a hard place here. He was one of three people who could actually see where the ship was heading...Fleet and Lee being the other two...whereas the guy who was the de facto driver (Boxhall) couldn't see squat and who could only operate the steering wheel (Hichens) by way of bell signals from 250 feet away.

At two to three miles, you have some measure of time on your side so if you only expect an evolution to take a minute, there's no reason for a knee jerk reaction to something that's looming up ahead in your path if it's at a respectable range. You still have to deal with it, but you have *some* wiggle room. Not much, but some.

The problem here...if David is correct...is that apparently they ran out of wiggle room and into a roadblock that for some reason, they failed to notice or which they noticed to late because they got so wrapped up in dealing with one problem that they lost sight of the whole picture.

Now allowing for the possibility that he could be mistaken, if anybody has a plausible alternative, by all means, offer it up and let's kick it around some.
 
Boxhall perhaps went to spend a penny.
Would have been a little chilly that night.
One passenger did say she ran into an officer that noted an iceberg. It could have only been one bloke !
 
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