Is there any consensus regarding the shooting?

[Arun Vajpey]

But apparently Fatimah saw that happening and reported it to her relatives. I doubt this is a myth that evolved with time. Fatimah died in the 70s, and apparently spread the story of her cousin being shot down her family line. Either she was lying or her modern day relatives are lying and fatimah never reported such a thing

IMO (and that only), the story is a modern day exaggeration by her descendants. Fatimah had no reason to lie but might have said something about shots being fired when she and her cousins were trying to get into a lifeboat. Her cousins died (due to causes like hundreds of other victims) but over time - especially after her death - the story could very easily have got embellished, especially if those contemporary relatives read other reports of people being shot. If then someone researching for a book questioned them for information.....well, you can guess the rest.

I think Seumas is right about 'being in the middle' with this subject.

 

[George Jacub]

The 2011 book 'The Dream and Then the Nightmare, The Syrians who boarded the Titanic' by Leila Salloum Elias is an invaluable source for anyone purporting to do serious research into the Titanic disaster. Elias searched through Arab-language newspapers and contacted relatives of survivors to write the first and so far only book relating the accounts of a long-ignored bloc of steerage passengers. It is as much a resource as any book written about the Norwegians, the Irish, the Swedes, and any other nationalities on board the sinking ship. (The biggest flaw is a lack of an index for the 335-page book.)

 

[Arun Vajpey]

The 2011 book 'The Dream and Then the Nightmare, The Syrians who boarded the Titanic' by Leila Salloum Elias is an invaluable source for anyone purporting to do serious research into the Titanic disaster

That book is so "invaluable" that after I threw money away to buy and read it, I gave it away to an RSPCA Charity Shop; I was even prepared to offer them a Fiver to take it if they had protested that there was no more room in their bookshelves.

 

[Michael H. Standart]

Shots in the Dark is likely the best analysis of the evidence that something might have happened. As Seumas indicated, there is no real consensus and probably never will be. There are a lot of instances of overthinking the problem but that's it.

Shots in the Dark

 

[Jason D. Tiller]

Here's a related thread which provides some further information on this debate, Sarah:

Did Murdoch shoot himself?

Hi all! I'm researching William McMaster Murdoch bio and I'll be glad to help some of you with your questions. Unfortunately I can access i-net only once a week- so type it here (or email me at max_nik@imail.ru or max_nik1999@yahoo.com ) and I'll try to help ya! Best regards to all...

www.encyclopedia-titanica.org

Not only is there no consensus on if there was an officer who shot themselves, there is also no clear consensus as to who it may have been. Even Captain Smith and James Moody were said to have pulled the trigger, but that simply doesn't fit with the evidence. This is one of those mysteries concerning the last moments of the Titanic that I also don't believe we will ever fully understand, for reasons already stated above.

 

[Sarah S]

Here's a related thread which provides some further information on this debate, Sarah:

Did Murdoch shoot himself?

Hi all! I'm researching William McMaster Murdoch bio and I'll be glad to help some of you with your questions. Unfortunately I can access i-net only once a week- so type it here (or email me at max_nik@imail.ru or max_nik1999@yahoo.com ) and I'll try to help ya! Best regards to all...

www.encyclopedia-titanica.org

Not only is there no consensus on if there was an officer who shot themselves, there is also no clear consensus as to who it may have been. Even Captain Smith and James Moody were said to have pulled the trigger, but that simply doesn't fit with the evidence. This is one of those mysteries concerning the last moments of the Titanic that I also don't believe we will ever fully understand, for reasons already stated above.

Oh yes this is one of the most famous threads here I think. it’s such a mysterious topic, There is hardly a point where members have unanimously agreed on. This is shocking as I had thought there were at least some factual results of all those investigations.
Maybe it’s also so uncertain who shot and who was killed because neither the american nor the british inquiry ever truly focused on this question? If they had asked more crew members about the officers and guns, maybe it would have lead us to safer conclusions on which officer was at what position. For example little is known about the exact actions and whereabouts of Wilde, the Captain or even Moody. And even if a crew member was later asked about these people, they sometimes gave short and vague responses they weren’t asked to specify.
Most of the witness accounts regarding the shooting and suicide were from passengers who reported of shots in letters to their relatives. I don’t remember if the topic of shots and officers was mentioned much during inquiries..

 

[Arun Vajpey]

Shots in the Dark

Thanks Mike. Unless I am mistaken, that was also covered in Appendix K of OASOG over 16 pages, but it is always very useful to have the page in the form of a link so that we can read each survivor witness statement at leisure.

 

[Steven Christian]

Oh yes this is one of the most famous threads here I think. it’s such a mysterious topic, There is hardly a point where members have unanimously agreed on. This is shocking as I had thought there were at least some factual results of all those investigations.
Maybe it’s also so uncertain who shot and who was killed because neither the american nor the british inquiry ever truly focused on this question? If they had asked more crew members about the officers and guns, maybe it would have lead us to safer conclusions on which officer was at what position. For example little is known about the exact actions and whereabouts of Wilde, the Captain or even Moody. And even if a crew member was later asked about these people, they sometimes gave short and vague responses they weren’t asked to specify.
Most of the witness accounts regarding the shooting and suicide were from passengers who reported of shots in letters to their relatives. I don’t remember if the topic of shots and officers was mentioned much during inquiries..

Outside of a few sentences that were about Lowe firing warning/signal shots I don't recall much at all about shots being fired during the inquires. If you do a keyword search of the inquiries that's about all that comes up. Lowe fired his warning shots. That's pretty well established as fact. Personally as I've stated many times here I don't believe anybody got shot or shot themselves. I think a lot of it came from people hearing the warning shots and stories grew from that. But I can't prove that. Just my belief. Cheers.

 

[Jason D. Tiller]

I don’t remember if the topic of shots and officers was mentioned much during inquiries..

No it was not covered at either inquiry, which I find quite perpelxing. However and what is interesting is (this is covered in Shots in the Dark which Michael posted above) that James McGough mentions a shooting in the book The Sinking of the Titanic by Logan Marshall:

“At the end sailors had to tear Mrs. Widener from him, and she went down the ladder, calling to him pitifully. The ship went down at 2.20 o'clock exactly. The front end went down gradually. We saw no men shot, but just before the finish we heard several shots."
"I was told that Captain Smith or one of the officers shot himself on the bridge just before the Titanic went under. I heard also that several men had been killed as they made a final rush for the boats, trying to cut off the women and children.”

Strangely enough, when he submitted his affidavit to the U.S. Inquiry, McGough made no mention of the supposed shooting.

 

[Sarah S]

No it was not covered at either inquiry, which I find quite perpelxing. However and what is interesting is (this is covered in Shots in the Dark which Michael posted above) that James McGough mentions a shooting in the book The Sinking of the Titanic by Logan Marshall:

“At the end sailors had to tear Mrs. Widener from him, and she went down the ladder, calling to him pitifully. The ship went down at 2.20 o'clock exactly. The front end went down gradually. We saw no men shot, but just before the finish we heard several shots."
"I was told that Captain Smith or one of the officers shot himself on the bridge just before the Titanic went under. I heard also that several men had been killed as they made a final rush for the boats, trying to cut off the women and children.”

Strangely enough, when he submitted his affidavit to the U.S. Inquiry, McGough made no mention of the supposed shooting.

This is indeed interesting. I can imagine a higher-up in white starline could have ordered all the surviving employeers on the titanic to keep quiet during the inquiries about any such incidents that could tarnish their image. So most of those shooting accounts were only reported in letters, books and hearsay’s. The way McGough described the last moments of the sinking sound the most plausible imo: shootings and suicide most likely happened, but nobody was able to catch the sight of it

 

[Dan E. Parkes]

I've been collecting accounts of officer shootings/suicides since the 1990s and to be honest, I have recently given up as there were simply so many. For example, Paul Lee's new book "Titanic the Homecoming" has a load of new accounts that could be added to the list.

Suicide Witnesses| William Murdoch

Investigates the life and the mystery surrounding Titanic's First Officer, William McMaster Murdoch with regularly updated research.

www.williammurdoch.net

Like the old adage, where there is smoke there is fire. Personally, it is more extraordinary to believe that under the conditions (and especially since the officers were armed and those that survived admitted to using their guns) that something did not happen.

 

[Arun Vajpey]

Like the old adage, where there is smoke there is fire. Personally, it is more extraordinary to believe that under the conditions (and especially since the officers were armed and those that survived admitted to using their guns) that something did not happen.

Agreed guardedly. There are too many accounts of an officer supposedly shooting two passengers (?) and then turning the gun on himself for us to dimiss the possibility altogether. But IF that incident did happen, I believe that the officer involved was not Murdoch. As I said before, during my research into John Collins, the picture emerged that he saw the shooting incident as well as Murdoch's final moments, which were a few minutes later while the First Officer and others were still working on Collapsible A. Several people, including Walter Lord himself felt by the end of 1989 that it was Wilde and not Murdoch who was the Officer involved but there is no direct evidence of that. It is conundrum that might never be solved.

 

[Steven Christian]

Dan, Sarah, Arun I agree with what you all stated. One of the reasons I came to the belief that nobody got shot or shot themselves was there was just too many different stories. Anything is possible and we'll never know for sure unless somebody uncovers something new. But a lot of the accounts sounded to me like sea stories that grew out of the pub. After about the 15th story and counting up all the accounts of different officers who supposedly shot themselves I gave up on it. Cheers.
P.S...Sarah I don't think there was an official order to keep quite about things but I'm sure the word spread that if one knows whats good for them and they like working for WSL be careful what you say. Cheers.

 

[Arun Vajpey]

One thing is certain: There was definitely no shooting spree on board like some ridiculous books and blogs claim.

 

[Seumas]

One thing is certain: There was definitely no shooting spree on board like some ridiculous books and blogs claim.

Indeed. A couple of claims are more like something out of a Sergio Leone film given the amount of bullets flying and bodies piling up !