Sinking incidents before the Titanic and how they may have influenced the Titanic evacuation

The actions and decisions of the Titanic Captain, Officers and crew that night might be judged in the context of previous sinkings, particularly the SS Arctic in 1854, which sank after a collision with another ship. Coincidentally, the Arctic was the luxury liner of its day which sank in becalmed conditions off Newfoundland, although in this case the problem was fog not ice. An experienced seaman such as Captain Smith and several of the officers would surely have been aware of this sinking, since it was one of the most notorious and worst peacetime seaborne disasters up to that time.

The Arctic carried only six lifeboats, capable of taking 180 persons, half of those on board. Sound familiar? So far from the Titanic being exceptional, it was very much a repeat incident, albeit on a larger scale and with more important people on board.

There were some differences though. Unlike the Titanic, discipline broke down and there was no observance of “women and children first”. Members of the crew and able-bodied male passengers rushed to take most of the places. All the women and children on board the Arctic perished and the 85 survivors consisted of 61 of the crew and 24 male passengers. In fact this wasn't unusual in sinkings. Far from women and children being first, it was a matter of survival of the strongest, and there were rarely enough lifeboats for everyone. In 18 maritime disasters from 1852 to 2011, involving some 15,000 passengers from more than 30 nations, the survival rate of women was on average about half that of men, and children had the lowest survival rate of all. In an analysis of 16 shipwrecks that had not been analysed previously, women and children were also at a significant disadvantage to men, whilst crew members had a higher survival rate than passengers, and only nine of 16 captains went down with their ships.

Captain Smith and the Officers of the Titanic reversed some of these statistics, since proportionately more women & children survived. They also maintained order almost up to the end. All we know about the 3rd class passengers is that they were directed to the back of the ship, and most only discovered about the need to evacuate until too late. The minority that did survive didn't report encountering any locked gates or threats; but drawing wider conclusions based on this could introduce survivorship bias.

The myth of the 'women and children first rule' was probably the consequence of the HMS Birkenhead sinking in 1852, in which there were only 193 survivors out of 638 passengers and crew, but all the women and children were saved. However, these were the family of officers on this troopship, so it's hardly suprising. Although this chivalry might be projected onto the Titanic's crew, their decision probably killed more people than it saved, because some families refused to seperate, slowing the evacuation.
 
There was a steamer called the General Slocum - It was in a bad state of repair and was hired by the community of German-Americans from the lower east side of New York, who had booked it to carry them to an island for a community picnic to celebrate their impending move to the upper west side (a better area) of New York. If I remember rightly, there was a fire onboard as they sailed up the East River and the steamer went down (15 June 1904). As was the custom in those days, women were not encouraged to swim - which would have meant showing their bodies in public. So most women couldn't swim. Men on the other hand often did learn to swim and in this case, most of the survivors were men who were able to swim away from the paddle steamer. Of the 1358 passengers and crew on board, there were only 321 survivors.

Part of the horrific thing about this case was the lifebelts. These had been filled with cheap inferior cork and brought up to the weight requirement at that time, by the inserting iron weights into the materials used. As the lifebelts on the steamer had been made in 1891 and left exposed to the elements, for 13 years, the canvas covers rotted, split and scattered the cork. Women apparently placed their children in the lifebelts and threw them into the river, only to watch them sink

The Captain was charged with criminal neglect and did 10 years in prison. The company who produced the lifebelts were indicted but not convicted and from what I've read, this appears to be an incident cited as the origin of the 'Women and Children' first rule - due to so many women and children drowning that day. ( PS General Slocum - Wikipedia)

As it happened in 1904, and as Captain Smith's career often took him to New York - he would most likely have heard of this very tragic case and potentially been influenced by it.

Interestingly, John Flammang Schrank, who lost his girlfriend - Emily Ziegler on the General Slocum - was responsible for the attempted assassination of Theodore Roosevelt on October 14th 1912.
 
Another one saw the Youtube videos I guess.

I highly doubt the Arctic or any other previous disaster shaped in any way the, mostly harmful, actions of Smith and his officers.

The General Slocum definitely had nothing to do with 'women and children first', which is not and has never been a 'rule', and the few times it has been applied it has done more harm than good, as on Titanic. The origin of that idea came from HMS Birkenhead, as already stated. General Slocum was a river steamer and the catastrophic outcome of that disaster lay primarily in the shipowner's criminal negligence in providing the ship with usable lifebelts and an experienced crew and maintaining its firefighting equipment, as well as, possibly, wrong decisions by its captain after the fire broke out.

Although this chivalry might be projected onto the Titanic's crew, their decision probably killed more people than it saved, because some families refused to seperate, slowing the evacuation.

Not just that. This "chivalry" resulted in all the port side lifeboats being launched half-empty and hundreds of men needlessly losing their lives, and in boys as young as thirteen being turned away from lifeboats. But all of this is very well known on this board. Also "chivalry" enforced at gunpoint is not chivalry, it's... something I could not properly define while respecting the rules of a normal civilized discussion.

I will passingly remark that if three of Arctic's lifeboats hadn't just vanished at sea with all of their occupants, something that did not happen with Titanic thanks to radio (not existing in Arctic's times) ensuring that rescue ships were on the scene in the matter of a few hours, the survival percentage of Arctic might have been on par or maybe even slightly higher than the Titanic.
 
Another one saw the Youtube videos I guess.

I highly doubt the Arctic or any other previous disaster shaped in any way the, mostly harmful, actions of Smith and his officers.

The General Slocum definitely had nothing to do with 'women and children first', which is not and has never been a 'rule', and the few times it has been applied it has done more harm than good, as on Titanic. The origin of that idea came from HMS Birkenhead, as already stated. General Slocum was a river steamer and the catastrophic outcome of that disaster lay primarily in the shipowner's criminal negligence in providing the ship with usable lifebelts and an experienced crew and maintaining its firefighting equipment, as well as, possibly, wrong decisions by its captain after the fire broke out.



Not just that. This "chivalry" resulted in all the port side lifeboats being launched half-empty and hundreds of men needlessly losing their lives, and in boys as young as thirteen being turned away from lifeboats. But all of this is very well known on this board. Also "chivalry" enforced at gunpoint is not chivalry, it's... something I could not properly define while respecting the rules of a normal civilized discussion.

I will passingly remark that if three of Arctic's lifeboats hadn't just vanished at sea with all of their occupants, something that did not happen with Titanic thanks to radio (not existing in Arctic's times) ensuring that rescue ships were on the scene in the matter of a few hours, the survival percentage of Arctic might have been on par or maybe even slightly higher than the Titanic.
Sorry, but you're wrong there. I don't watch Youtube videos. As an analyst I read alot of evidence from a variety of sources. I'm new to this website and was only offering an additional suggestion of possible influence on why women and children were prioritised.

From my reading on Captain Smith, he appears to have spent very little time with his wife and daughter due to his duties at sea and, that too may have been an influencing factor, that and chivalry, I agree.

I came across the General Slocum in my research into the political and economic backdrop to this period in history and this disaster caught my attention.
 
I wasn't referring to you but to Peter Chappell. Lately there's been a "rediscovery" of the Arctic disaster, apparently largely due to some Youtube history channels releasing videos about it.
 
Understood. Thanks Ezekiel.
As your thread is about incidents influencing the evacuation process prior to the Titanic's sinking, I wonder if you can help me with 2 question about the evacuation process solely or sign post me to someone/some information that might help

I have come across at least two witness statements (one steward one passenger) who refer to seeing several stewards assisting the evacuation of 3rd class passengers from the forward part of the ship to amidships and these stewards not really taking the collision seriously.

My question is: Do we know if the order for the stewards to do this came directly from the Captain or was this a responsive duty written into their duties in the case of such an emergency.

For example, a crew member knew his boat station no. 11 from the printed list near his quarters and having felt the collision, informed the British Inquiry that he saw it as his duty to attend his boat station without having received a direct order. He then went on to help with the lifeboats before getting into no. 13 boat after having been informed that no. 11 was full.

I used to be a fire drill officer secondary to my main duties where I worked, and when the alarm went off, it was my duty to immediately collect the staff register and with my high viz jacket on, lead staff to the appropriate fire exit and to the external assembly point. This was part of the fire drill officer's duty rather than in response to an order led command.

Many thanks.
 
Do we know if the order for the stewards to do this came directly from the Captain or was this a responsive duty written into their duties in the case of such an emergency.
The head of the entire victualling department, which included the stewards, was Chief Purser McElroy. Also there was Assistant Purser Barker under him. Directly in charge of the stewards were: Chief Steward Latimer, 2nd Steward Dodd, Assistant 2nd Steward Wheat, Chief 2nd Class Steward Hardy, Chief 3rd class Steward Kieran. They were the ones to give orders.
 
Unfortunately I do not know the answer to this question.
To explain what Samuel Explained in a bit more detail:
Chief Purser McElroy
Purser Hugh Richard Walter McElroy (1874-1912) was in charge of the following matters:
• The ship’s business on-board the ship
• Has to know the entire ship and it’s crew
• Needs to provide an answer to any question, a purser cannot afford to be wrong.
• Representative of the owners of the ship in all his dealings with the passengers from the time they embark until they go down the gangway plank at their port of destination.
• Discusses the menu plan of the day served in the first class dining saloon with the chef
• Safeguards deposited valuable items stored in the Milner safe, such as jewels and money. And with that the goodwill of it’s clientele
• Has the ship’s cargo manifest and other documents related to it in his possession.
• Has represented obligations at his own table in the first class dining saloon.
• If the captain would have to remain on the bridge, the purser would take his place at the Sunday service.
• Together with the first officer, the purser would draw up the boat-list in case of an emergency.
• Runs the cashier office and paid the ship’s crew for their hire.
• Administered the alcoholic beverages served on-board.
Assistant Purser Barker
Assistant purser Reginald Lomond Barker (1870-1912) was McElroy his assistant and primarily worked in second and third class and like McElroy (albeit in second class) he had his table at the second class dining saloon.
Chief Steward Latimer
Chief steward Andrew Latimer (1857-1912) had the following responsibilities:
  • Responsible for all the stewards in first class.
  • Attending each dining seating’s to make sure it is ran smoothly
2nd Steward Dodd
Second steward George Charles Dodd (1867-1912) had the following responsibilities:
• Was responsible for the baggage on-board the ship together with the baggage steward.
• Would arrange the table arrangements of the first class dining saloon together with his two assistants based on the requests and wishes of the passengers, the captain (if present), the surgeon and the purser.
• Noted down eating times of passengers outside the set dining hours or to be served in the stateroom of that said passenger.
• Attending each dining seating’s to make sure it is ran smoothly
Assistant 2nd Steward Wheat
Assistant second steward William Thomas Hughes (1878-1912) and assistant second steward Joseph Thomas Wheat (1882-1961) had the following responsibilities:
  • Assisting the second steward with his duties.
  • Attending each dining seating’s to make sure it is ran smoothly


While not mentioned you also had the first, second and third first class dining saloon stewards:
First saloon steward William Stephen Moss (1876-1912)
Second saloon steward William Burke (1872-1961)
Third saloon steward Alfred James Goshawk (1871-1912)
Their duties were to:
• Competent for preparations in the saloon
• Supervising the saloon stewards in their section
• Serving high-profile passengers
Chief 2nd Class Steward Hardy
Chief second class steward John William Hardy (1871-1953) had the following responsibilities:
  • Responsible for all the stewards in second class.
  • Attending each dining seating’s to make sure it is ran smoothly
You also had the second class saloon steward by the name of Thomas Henry Jenner (1856-1912), who served as Hardy his deputy in the dining saloon. He had the following responsibilities:
• Competent for preparations in the saloon
• Supervising the saloon stewards in their section
Chief 3rd class Steward Kieran
Chief third class steward James William Kieran (1877-1912) had the following responsibilities:
  • Responsible for all the stewards in third class
  • Attending each dining seating’s to make sure it is ran smoothly
He was helped by Second third class steward Samuel Francis Sedunary (1887-1912)




I hope that offers even more transparency.


Kind regards,

Thomas
 
Back
Top