Sinking incidents before the Titanic and how they may have influenced the Titanic evacuation

[Ian Donaldson]

It was partly, for this reason, I have written a book: Titanic: The Truth On Trial, which deals with many of the losses mentioned and hopefully clears up some of the ambiguity.

I say this because there was a successful attempt by senior British Board of Trade officials and the White Star Line to place in the mind of Lord Mersey's Inquiry that there was an "immunity from loss" among vessels, in particular among those on the North Atlantic passage over many decades.

This enabled the Court to accept the premise that it was right for vessels such as the Titanic to make the fastest passage and justified the number of lifeboats available.

Those who have suspected an official 'cover-up' can find within my book a detailed account of many losses at sea leading up to the Titanic and the withholding of the accurate number of losses at sea. My claim is adequately supported by references throughout and makes interesting reading. Here is the link for UK and US readers:-

Titanic: The Truth On Trial eBook : Donaldson, Ian: Amazon.co.uk: Kindle Store

Amazon.com: Titanic: The Truth On Trial eBook : Donaldson, Ian: Kindle Store

N.B. Paperback and hardback versions are also available.
I do not want anyone to think this a shameless plug to boost sales, but I am genuinely aiming to disseminate as much about this part of the Titanic story and what took place by way of investigation afterwards.
I hope you agree it is a worthwhile read.

 

[PeterChappell]

I wasn't referring to you but to Peter Chappell. Lately there's been a "rediscovery" of the Arctic disaster, apparently largely due to some Youtube history channels releasing videos about it.

I thought the sources were clearly linked, can you see them?

 

[marina_irc]

The actions and decisions of the Titanic Captain, Officers and crew that night might be judged in the context of previous sinkings, particularly the SS Arctic in 1854, which sank after a collision with another ship. Coincidentally, the Arctic was the luxury liner of its day which sank in becalmed conditions off Newfoundland, although in this case the problem was fog not ice. An experienced seaman such as Captain Smith and several of the officers would surely have been aware of this sinking, since it was one of the most notorious and worst peacetime seaborne disasters up to that time.

The Arctic carried only six lifeboats, capable of taking 180 persons, half of those on board. Sound familiar? So far from the Titanic being exceptional, it was very much a repeat incident, albeit on a larger scale and with more important people on board.

There were some differences though. Unlike the Titanic, discipline broke down and there was no observance of “women and children first”. Members of the crew and able-bodied male passengers rushed to take most of the places. All the women and children on board the Arctic perished and the 85 survivors consisted of 61 of the crew and 24 male passengers. In fact this wasn't unusual in sinkings. Far from women and children being first, it was a matter of survival of the strongest, and there were rarely enough lifeboats for everyone. In 18 maritime disasters from 1852 to 2011, involving some 15,000 passengers from more than 30 nations, the survival rate of women was on average about half that of men, and children had the lowest survival rate of all. In an analysis of 16 shipwrecks that had not been analysed previously, women and children were also at a significant disadvantage to men, whilst crew members had a higher survival rate than passengers, and only nine of 16 captains went down with their ships.

Captain Smith and the Officers of the Titanic reversed some of these statistics, since proportionately more women & children survived. They also maintained order almost up to the end. All we know about the 3rd class passengers is that they were directed to the back of the ship, and most only discovered about the need to evacuate until too late. The minority that did survive didn't report encountering any locked gates or threats; but drawing wider conclusions based on this could introduce survivorship bias.

The myth of the 'women and children first rule' was probably the consequence of the HMS Birkenhead sinking in 1852, in which there were only 193 survivors out of 638 passengers and crew, but all the women and children were saved. However, these were the family of officers on this troopship, so it's hardly suprising. Although this chivalry might be projected onto the Titanic's crew, their decision probably killed more people than it saved, because some families refused to seperate, slowing the evacuation.

I think the "Birkenhead Drill" must be seen as a cultural touchstone which deeply influenced the men on the Titanic, including the distribution of arms. I disagree that it necessarily killed people, however. A complete breakdown in order could have easily had unforeseen consequences. We don't actually know, for example, how much the pumping served to help actively manage the ship's stability. A general rush for the boats might have also seen the engineering crews abandon their posts to run for the decks at a much earlier stage. It might have also impacted the successful launching of the lifeboats, which as we know was already actually quite difficult to accomplish in the time available. Boats being swamped while being lowered is also a staple of most shipwreck stories; I'd love to know what the actual average ratio of those saved to the theoretical maximum number the boats could save in a wreck is. I doubt Titanic's officers ended up under the mean by very much.

I believe the only sure improvement in survival rates in the disaster that we can definitely say wouldn't have made the situation worse, would have come from men being loaded into all the boats once there were no more women and children on hand.

 

[SunnyDay]

I think the "Birkenhead Drill" must be seen as a cultural touchstone which deeply influenced the men on the Titanic, including the distribution of arms. I disagree that it necessarily killed people, however. A complete breakdown in order could have easily had unforeseen consequences. We don't actually know, for example, how much the pumping served to help actively manage the ship's stability. A general rush for the boats might have also seen the engineering crews abandon their posts to run for the decks at a much earlier stage. It might have also impacted the successful launching of the lifeboats, which as we know was already actually quite difficult to accomplish in the time available. Boats being swamped while being lowered is also a staple of most shipwreck stories; I'd love to know what the actual average ratio of those saved to the theoretical maximum number the boats could save in a wreck is. I doubt Titanic's officers ended up under the mean by very much.

I believe the only sure improvement in survival rates in the disaster that we can definitely say wouldn't have made the situation worse, would have come from men being loaded into all the boats once there were no more women and children on hand.

Thats what I think. When you look at the positives...

1) The lights stayed on....HUGE. Loading people in the dark would have been incredibly hard and people would have panicked.

2) Most lifeboats went off in one piece

3) There was no crush, no stampede, no crowd panic.... just look at the Station nightclub fire for example

4) Hundreds saved including children

5) Order was overall maintained

The officers did an incredible job given the awful hand they were dealt.

 

[marina_irc]

Thats what I think. When you look at the positives...

1) The lights stayed on....HUGE. Loading people in the dark would have been incredibly hard and people would have panicked.

2) Most lifeboats went off in one piece

3) There was no crush, no stampede, no crowd panic.... just look at the Station nightclub fire for example

4) Hundreds saved including children

5) Order was overall maintained

The officers did an incredible job given the awful hand they were dealt.

I won't say it was an excellent job, but having been given a situation in which they had to use exclusively their own devices to try and save somewhere up to but not exceeding 1,200 people on a ship loaded with 2,200 people, they saved more than 700 people. They were required to use manually lowered lifeboats for this through a complex and cumbersome system, having only had experience in drills that were not particularly realistic. They would probably be remembered more favorably if they had managed to get survivors off in bad weather; Titanic sank in conditions that nobody really anticipated in the regulations. Clallam is the kind of nightmare which is more usual from the story of a sinking.

 

[SunnyDay]

I won't say it was an excellent job, but having been given a situation in which they had to use exclusively their own devices to try and save somewhere up to but not exceeding 1,200 people on a ship loaded with 2,200 people, they saved more than 700 people. They were required to use manually lowered lifeboats for this through a complex and cumbersome system, having only had experience in drills that were not particularly realistic. They would probably be remembered more favorably if they had managed to get survivors off in bad weather; Titanic sank in conditions that nobody really anticipated in the regulations. Clallam is the kind of nightmare which is more usual from the story of a sinking.

Just googled Clalam. Bad times.

 

[TabithaColon]

The actions and decisions of the Titanic Captain, Officers and crew that night might be judged in the context of previous sinkings, particularly the SS Arctic in 1854, which sank after a collision with another ship. Coincidentally, the Arctic was the luxury liner of its day which sank in becalmed conditions off Newfoundland, although in this case the problem was fog not ice. An experienced seaman such as Captain Smith and several of the officers would surely have been aware of this sinking, since it was one of the most notorious and worst peacetime seaborne disasters up to that time.

The Arctic carried only six lifeboats, capable of taking 180 persons, half of those on board. Sound familiar? So far from the Titanic being exceptional, it was very much a repeat incident, albeit on a larger scale and with more important people on board.

There were some differences though. Unlike the Titanic, discipline broke down and there was no observance of “women and children first”. Members of the crew and able-bodied male passengers rushed to take most of the places. All the women and children on board the Arctic perished and the 85 survivors consisted of 61 of the crew and 24 male passengers. In fact this wasn't unusual in sinkings. Far from women and children being first, it was a matter of survival of the strongest, and there were rarely enough lifeboats for everyone. In 18 maritime disasters from 1852 to 2011, involving some 15,000 passengers from more than 30 nations, the survival rate of women was on average about half that of men, and children had the lowest survival rate of all. In an analysis of 16 shipwrecks that had not been analysed previously, women and children were also at a significant disadvantage to men, whilst crew members had a higher survival rate than passengers, and only nine of 16 captains went down with their ships.

Captain Smith and the Officers of the Titanic reversed some of these statistics, since proportionately more women & children survived. They also maintained order almost up to the end. All we know about the 3rd class passengers is that they were directed to the back of the ship, and most only discovered about the need to evacuate until too late. The minority that did survive didn't report encountering any locked gates or threats; but drawing wider conclusions based on this could introduce survivorship bias.

The myth of the 'women and children first rule' was probably the consequence of the HMS Birkenhead sinking in 1852, in which there were only 193 survivors out of 638 passengers and crew, but all the women and children were saved. However, these were the family of officers on this troopship, so it's hardly suprising. Although this chivalry might be projected onto the Titanic's crew, their decision probably killed more people than it saved, because some families refused to seperate, slowing the evacuation. Power Warriors Mod APK is one of the most popular anime simulation games today. The game is available on the Power Warriors 17.0 APK (Unlimited Money, Android Game) website, the game is inspired by the famous manga and cartoon series Dragon Ball. When joining the game. Players will be transformed into famous characters in Dragon Ball such as Goku, Vegeta, Piccolo, etc.

The actions and decisions of the Titanic's captain, officers, and crew have been the subject of much analysis and debate over the years. It is true that previous sinkings, such as the SS Arctic in 1854, can provide some context for understanding the events of that tragic night. The Arctic sinking, like the Titanic, was a maritime disaster involving a luxury liner and a limited number of lifeboats.

 

[Ezekiel]

Thats what I think. When you look at the positives...

1) The lights stayed on....HUGE. Loading people in the dark would have been incredibly hard and people would have panicked.

2) Most lifeboats went off in one piece

3) There was no crush, no stampede, no crowd panic.... just look at the Station nightclub fire for example

4) Hundreds saved including children

5) Order was overall maintained

The officers did an incredible job given the awful hand they were dealt.

The lights stayed on.

Unusually flat calm sea.

Ship sinking with little or no list.

No crush, no stampede, no serious crowd panic. Order was mantained, passengers very obedient, even too much when one considers how awfully unsuited to the task the fellows in charge were.

All lifeboats except A and B went off "in one piece".

Room for 1,200 people in the lifeboats, including all women and children as well as six hundred men. Yet they managed to get killed one-third of the women, half of the children and all but about 300 of the men.

The officers did an incredibly awful job given the not-so-bad hand they were dealt.

 

[PeterChappell]

Order was mantained, passengers very obedient....

In the early stages of the evacuation, the officers had difficulty convincing some of the passengers to get in the lifeboats because it appeared that the Titanic wouldn't sink.

This is the dilemma of a slowly sinking ship.

 

[SunnyDay]

The lights stayed on.

Unusually flat calm sea.

Ship sinking with little or no list.

No crush, no stampede, no serious crowd panic. Order was mantained, passengers very obedient, even too much when one considers how awfully unsuited to the task the fellows in charge were.

All lifeboats except A and B went off "in one piece".

Room for 1,200 people in the lifeboats, including all women and children as well as six hundred men. Yet they managed to get killed one-third of the women, half of the children and all but about 300 of the men.

The officers did an incredibly awful job given the not-so-bad hand they were dealt.

I see your point, but I see it differently