Speed After Collision

Quite. Well, we could use an average berg with some back calculation from our knowledge of the damage, but it would introduce serious uncertainty, unless we simply assumed the photographs of the supposed berg are of the correct one. Photo analysis could let us grow a fairly accurate model, then.
 
Not entirely sure why lack of berg details would be prohibitive to modelling, just yet another uncertainty. I'd suggest though that even if computer modelling cannot handle this now 100 years after the event, in another 100 it will. Someone will have created an off the shelf system for industrial purposes and then a user will have done everything necessry for the Titanic case just for entertainment, or publicity.

I'm not convinced the collision would be a continuous contact along a significant length all at the same time: the theories I have heard talk more about a 'tin opener' effect where a relatively small point of contact is ripping a line along the ship as it moves. This would maximise damage at the point of contact yet presumably also minimise drag on the ship. Like a head on ramming, I think a wide area impact on the side might have been more surviveable.

Jim, dont really understand your diagrams but will consider them. The centre of mass of the ship remains fixed and is the point about which it will turn. There will be complex reactions upon it from the water resisting other forces. The two sources of force are the collision reaction between two large moving objects, and the continuing force of the engines and rudder. The resultant of all these forces will be a rotation and rotational velocity about the centre of mass, and a translation and linear velocity in some direction (ie moving bodily in some direction, possibly sideways). I'm not sure, but I suspect your diagrams talking about an 'apparent pivot point' are a different way to look at this.

During the collision, the momentum of the ship would be considered to be acting through its centre of mass, the impact forces acting at the point of contact. The forces might also cause the ship to heel over as well if they were not balanced acting at the same height, introducing a third dimension to worry about. SGSC googles as South Georgia state college. I know little about ships or piloting.

The ball and chain strikes me as potentially misleading, but I suspect you might be talking about all this the way mariners might be taught it, rather than mechanical enginers? The force on the Titanic would never be along the direction of the chain, though its head might appear to move in that direction.

However, I don't know we necessarily disagree about the result, but I am still not convinced I have a feel for all the important issues or which forces dominate.

Now I think about it, I have always imagined that a ship turns so it is moving in the direction it is pointing. This is not necessarily true, ships can travel sideways too. What is perhaps happening as it turns is that the rudder provides a sideways force on the stern which rotates the ship. Then the drag from the water against the side of the ship impedes its motion in the original direction. The engines continue providing force in the forward direction, and it builds up speed in the new direction. This suggests that turning a ship causes braking and must slow it down? That although the head of Titanic might have been turned away from the berg, it could still be side slipping into it? Although ships must side slip when turning, I dont know how quickly the water would stop this? Turning a ship is maybe more like doing a handbrake turn with a car?

If side slip is actually significant, how familiar would ship's officers be with the concept of their ship side slipping while turning? Would even the officers onboard who had familiarity with Olympic know how Titanic would handle in an emergency turn at full speed?
 
I would imagine that impact (for that is what it was) with a huge immovable berg would have a different effect on a ship compared to impact with a growler...much smaller berg.

I can assure you that in practice, continuous contact with an object while moving at speed has a very drastic effect on the passage of a ship.

Survival depends on the number of compartments breached and therefor the of loss of buoyancy. In the case of Titanic I think it was four. The designers of Titanic or any other ship for that matter, placed the chances of that happening in practice between zero and none.

I have to dig deep into my memory for the following:

A ship rotates round a point called the "pivot point". She heels and tips around the center of gravity of her water plane, not the center of gravity of her mass, and rolls, gyrates and pitches round her metaceter.
Unlike the three mentioned centers, which are fixed for a certain condition, the pivot point moves. When stationary, it is just forward of midship. When the ship is moving it settles at a point about 1/3 length from the bow. However, when an eternal force is located at or near the bow, it moves to a point about 1/3 from the stern. If the ship is moving while this happens then it gets complicated. As the ship move forward beyond the original point of pressure into free water, but the pressure continues to act on the ship's side, the pivot point moves forward to meet it. Now add another complication. The force has a lateral component which causes the ship to move away from it. In doing so, water is displaced and the void created is filled with the surrounding sea. Thus a temporary current is set up. Not finished yet.
If the rudder is causing the ship to turn during all this, the turning motion also creates lateral currents acting on the ship's side.
Finally, as the ship is moving forward, water is displaces. This is replaced by water at the stern, following the ship in the form of a wake current.

A ship making a 360 degree continuous tun will slow down to almost half speed whenh 90 degrees of the turn have been completed.
Got to go. Lunch is ready.
 
Dan, ships don't move like cars move. There's several reasons for this, but mostly it has to do with the fact that the hull is immersed in a medium three orders of magnitude more dense than air. When you whip a car around down a windy country road, you are in fact accelerated added mass as you displace the air -- but it's about 1kg/m^3. With a ship it is approximately 1000kg/m^3, and things get complicated.

https://ocw.mit.edu/courses/mechani...cs-13-012-fall-2005/readings/2005reading6.pdf

3.11 Unsteady Motion - Added Mass

Here are a couple of MIT open course modules touching on Added Mass, Slender Body Theory and Unsteady Motion. They do not make light reading and mostly lead to more lectures, but doing scientific forensics of ship maneouvring as opposed to accepting the standard theory from experienced shiphandlers and calling it a day, you'll need to study this in some detail.

As for why computers can't necessarily model this, it isn't because of a lack of power but because of the Navier-Stokes Existence and Smoothness problems. Most of the time we make simplifying assumptions and can ignore this, and sometimes it's not important, but when we're dealing with an object which is actively ablating as it impacts with the Titanic, if we actually wanted to avoid making a bunch of simplifying assumptions and then do serious modelling of the inflicted damage, I'd be less sanguine about the ability of computers to produce the result without first conducting scaled tank tests.
 
How do you model chaos?

-- David G. Brown

My preferred method is to make each component discrete so that you can successfully control the variables, iterate how they interact with each other, and then run the simulation enough that you have a bell curve and can assign the correct result as the statistically probable one. There isn't actually a better method, probably never will be, and doesn't really need to be.



Collision impact analysis, even simple ones, is pretty impressive these days.
 
Survivor Fred Barrett was asked to describe the amount of water inside the bunker in boiler room 5. Does anyone know what his answer actually meant?

Q - Let us understand it. You said that the bunker in No. 5 had got some water coming into it?
A - Yes; but the hole was not so big in that section as it was in No. 6 section. By the time the water had got there she had stopped.
Q - So that the water was not coming into No. 5 fast enough to flood it?
A - No.

Was he suggesting the speed of the ship was affecting the rate of water rushing in and that the Titanic had stopped her engines when he looked inside the bunker? Or did he simply mean the damage only extended as far as the bunker and he mistakenly believed the ship's bow had crushed into the iceberg and compressed as far as the bunker and halted the ship in her tracks? - similar to QM Olliver who said "hitting the iceberg stopped the way of the ship." Did Barrett really mean the speed of the ship was affecting the rate of water rushing in and does that mean the order "half speed ahead" - witnessed by Olliver, may have have increased the rate of water rushing in?


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Do we have any boiler room survivors who saw the red light (stop engines) turn off, because that could mean the order slow ahead or slow astern was given. Fred Barrett said -

"A red light goes up when the ship is supposed to stop; a white light for full speed, and, I think it is a blue light for slow." Did anybody mention the 'blue light' coming on? There are reports that the lights went out and the crew had to find lamps. Does that mean the blue light could not come on, and by the time the electricity was restored the order 'stop' was given again and they had no idea that the order slow ahead or slow astern was actually given because they had lost power during that interval?


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I have thought of this myself. The light indicating telegraph would have went from red (stop) to either blue (slow), or green (half). Unfortantly I haven't seen any witness account of this light indicator ever changing from red. In Barrett's case, perhaps the order hadn't been sent yet when he was sent back to boiler room 6 by Hesketh who merely told the men to 'stand by', indicating that perhaps he was aware that the ship may be moved again. It is interesting to note that Barrett's timing of this order, 10 minutes after the collision, coincided with Scott's timing of his 'slow ahead' order.

It is after this, though no direct time is given, that the lights in boiler room 5 would go out. Barrett would go into the working alley, where the lights were still on, and order two men to fetch lamps. Barrett would claim that the lights would remain out for 10 minutes, and come back on just as the men would arrived with the lamps. If we look at Scott's timing of telegraph orders, than once again Barrett would have missed the changing of the light indicator, this time, 10 minutes after going 'slow ahead', to 'stop'. If Scott's 'slow astern' order was to bring Titanic to a halt, than there would be no need to generate more steam from the boilers, as steam would have been just used down. Possibly why, as Barrett would states, there was no water in the boilers.

Telegraph times.png



As far as the telegraph's being on the same circut, I cannot find anything about that, however when looking at a bridge schematic I can only assume they were not, though that's a purely uneducated guess on my part.
 
well that is not right,titanic was moving after collision for minimum 5 maximum 10-15 minutes and not any longer perhaps we will never find out how long exacly she moved after hitting ice,we only can speculate/guess how long. as for moving it was like

23:40 all stop
23:45 half or slow ahead
23:55 or 00;00 all stop

i am looking for titanic expert of experts. how long really titanic could go ahead,means technically how long she could run engines? we know the BR6 was gone and BR5 was taking water from coal bnker throught bunker doors,eventually the coal bunker fills up with water and the doors will burst and BR5 then is lost.

lets say titanic steamed after collision those 15 minutes,how much water would be pushed by forward movement of ship? was it really so that high?

lets say captain decides to not stop titanic at all and proceed to nearest port,when sinking process would render engines useless? we know BR6 was lost and BR5 was next but lets say captain let it go,what would happen next? i know it would sink quicker but how long really could it go ahead before engines would be forced to stop?

how muc steam would be generated by only boiler rooms 3 2 and 1? how much steam pressure was needed to run engines at minimal speed?
 
boiler room 5 was flooding throught coal bunker doors,but the flood rate was not eoungh to fill up boiler room 5 and pumps were keeping it dry,some time later when coal bunker was full of water bunker doors ripped apart and water filled the BR5

question is if pumping was able to keep boiler room 5 dry but water was growing in coal bunker would it means if the bunker doors were opened from time of collision water would flood BR5 earlier,or it was still able to control the flooding?
 
There did seem to be problems with the pumping which they were working on in boiler room 5. We know that a manhole cover was lifted to facilitate something to do with the pumping. We also know at some point additional suction hoses were brought up from aft. These could have been in an attempt to improve the capacity but I have a suspicion that the suction strainers may have blocked possibly in boiler room 6.

It would have been quite obvious from early on that boiler room 6 was lost and that the necessary conditions for the ship to founder had been achieved. Major flooding was occurring in holds 1, 2 and 3 and boiler room 6. The forepeak tank was also punctured all though the foremost section of the ship above the forepeak tank would not flood until the water flowed over the A bulkhead.

Back in boiler room 5, i'm not sure if the coal bunkers were open to drain water into the bilge but I fully expect they were. We know that the flooding bunker was empty due to the coal fire so the rate of flooding was faster than it could drain through the bottom and through a non water tight sliding door. Fred Barrett described it as about as fast as a fire hose. From my experience, that would be somewhere in the order of 50 tonnes and hour which equates to filling a 2x5x5 metre box in one hour. That sounds plausible given the timings we know of.

As pointed out, that is well within the capacity of the pumps however any pumping was only going to delay foundering not prevent it.
 
There was also a fireman Frank Dymond. I understand he was working in boiler room 4 when the collision occurred. He wrote a letter aboard the Lapland on his return to England and his account was published in several newspapers. The reporters who relayed his account said -

"When he heard a sound similar to a knife being drawn over a rasp. He ran up on deck to see what was the matter. No harm seemed to have been done, so he went back to the stokehold again. It was not long, however, before water began to pour in, and it had reached his ankles when he saw that something serious must have happened. He was then about to come off duty."

I believe he was standing on the foot plates which were several feet above the tank top, so if the water had rushed in from the moment of the collision it would take a little time before it rose above the plates and became noticeable. Perhaps the 'half speed ahead' order had accelerated the flooding process inside boiler room 4?


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There are a number of odd things about that statement that don't stack up.

Firstly, no one on watch would run up on deck and leave their place of duty with expecting to get into trouble.

Secondly, numerous sources talk about boiler room 4 being dry at floor plate level for far later in the sinking than the estimated timings of the watch change in the statement above.

It begs the question where was Dymond?
 
Dymond belonged to the 12 to 4 watch and was off watch when the collision occurred. He later went down to help most likely at boiler room No. 4.

The movement of the ship (it was slow ahead for a very short period) had no affect regarding driving water into the ship.
 
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