The back half stern area

[malcolm G chapman]

> Michael I have given you my explination and answered your questions over and over (please put your glasses on). If you carnt find the articals and photos in hear or in the sname documents, or copies of the sonar images im sorry, but I hardly have the time to write this, never mind hold your hand to guide you through the pages of factual evidence. thank you.

 

[Michael H. Standart]

>> Michael I have given you my explination and answered your questions over and over (please put your glasses on<<

I've done exactly that and responded to the lot point by point. Your explainations are questionable at best and in some of them shows an incredible misunderstanding of the history as it really was. Basically, you're tryng to champion the Brittle Steel theory and I've already shown where it's a red herring.

>>If you carnt find the articals and photos in hear or in the sname documents, or copies of the sonar images im sorry, but I hardly have the time to write this, never mind hold your hand to guide you through the pages of factual evidence. thank you.<<

I've been pouring through all of that for years. Quite a bit of it doesn't say what you claim and some of it has alternative explainations, none of which you've really addressed. As it stands, as the one who has been making the claims, the burden of proof is yours.

 

[Mervyn Pritchard]

Hi guys, i have just stumbled upon this thread and hope you are all still paying attention. It's a bit off topic but i was wondering Malcolm where you got the impression that H&W were a tiny unknown shipyard when they got the contract to build the Olympic class? I would be very keen to know why you feel this is so when everyone knows they were in fact producing more floating iron than anybody else on the planet in both Belfast and in the U.K. mainland. I think in one year their order books were so full that they outputted almost half of the worlds ship tonnage!

 

[malcolm G chapman]

This is another reason for choice of steel.
look at the date. Germany was saber rattling getting ready for war,the best hull plating at the time was imported from Crupp in Germany,they had the biggest modern furnesses and best hull plate in the world,it was widely used for UK ship building. With the massive amounts needed at the time for T and the prospect of war with Germany they couldent afford delays and the prospect of being shut off, so they went with a local provider to provide his best, and it was, but not as good as Crupp.This was proberbly due to the type of ore available, old fashion furnesses, and contamination. british iron was not the best at the time, most hullplating was imported.. Just about every iron tall ship that is still in service today has a krupp iron riveted hull.

 

[Michael H. Standart]

And your sources for the above claims are....???

 

[Steve Santini]

Pardon me, but I want to chime in here.

I agree with Michael that such a collision, under the same circumstances, is more than any ship of the time, and perhaps since, would have been able to withstand regardless of steel quality or content.

Simply put, two large objects meet, one of them at speed, and one of them with a pile more mass and hardness and something's got to give!

Regarding rivets, it is a common thing for rivets to shear off when force transferred to a hull plate bends it inwards.

The rivets are at the edge of the plate and have very little material between the hols and the edge.

Either there would be cracks from the edge of these rivet holes to the outside leading edge of the plates or the rivet heads would pop off.

Physics 101.

When doing talks on Titanic I like to describe it like taking both front panels of your buttoned down shirt and pulling them apart in opposite directions.

And is the shirt likely to tear?

Is the material going to rip?

Possibly, but not before a few buttons go flying off.

Just my 2 cents worth here.

Steve Santini

 

[James Smith]

Mr. Chapman--

I went to the SNAME website Michael linked to above but couldn't find an article that dealt extensively with the differences between Harland & Wolff steel and Krupp steel as applied to the Titanic. I realize you're busy, but if you could provide a reference or link to the specific article or articles you've been using as a source, I'd be grateful.

--Jim

 

[Dave Gittins]

A small point. It wasn't the heads of the rivets that failed. It was the points that failed. They were quite small and were formed by crushing the rivet ends by hammering or hydraulic pressing. The metal was forced into the shallow depressions made when the holes were punched. At least one rivet has been recovered, minus its point.

 

[Cam Houseman]

Late Evening:

A more exact explanation is in order on my behalf. What follows is a direct extract from Dr. Pelligrino's "Ghost's of the Titanic" -

"No one had dreamed it would be like this: the starboard side of the stern ruptured wide open, and the hull-plating, though once an inch thick, peeled back like the skin of an orange, exposing the rooms within. Down there, near the starboard peel, is where Matt Tulloch discovered the rippled, seemingly out-jetted serving platters. When he and Captain Paul Henry(sic) Nargeolet sent the robot ROBIN into the bakery and pantry compartments, they found the rooms squashed and entirely empty. Even the bakery door was missing, torn from it's iron frame and squirted out through the rupture in the stern's side".

END EXTRACT

Michael Cundif
USA

was that on E-Deck?

 

[Cam Houseman]

Late Evening:

A more exact explanation is in order on my behalf. What follows is a direct extract from Dr. Pelligrino's "Ghost's of the Titanic" -

"No one had dreamed it would be like this: the starboard side of the stern ruptured wide open, and the hull-plating, though once an inch thick, peeled back like the skin of an orange, exposing the rooms within. Down there, near the starboard peel, is where Matt Tulloch discovered the rippled, seemingly out-jetted serving platters. When he and Captain Paul Henry(sic) Nargeolet sent the robot ROBIN into the bakery and pantry compartments, they found the rooms squashed and entirely empty. Even the bakery door was missing, torn from it's iron frame and squirted out through the rupture in the stern's side".

END EXTRACT

Michael Cundif
USA

I think it was D-Deck, looking at the deckplans, its the only area where a Pantry and a Bakery, or called on the plans, a "Baker's Shop" are located together on the same deck. And, the Galley is behind them, and the Galley is draped over the Engines on the wreck

 

[Cam Houseman]

Late Evening:

A more exact explanation is in order on my behalf. What follows is a direct extract from Dr. Pelligrino's "Ghost's of the Titanic" -

"No one had dreamed it would be like this: the starboard side of the stern ruptured wide open, and the hull-plating, though once an inch thick, peeled back like the skin of an orange, exposing the rooms within. Down there, near the starboard peel, is where Matt Tulloch discovered the rippled, seemingly out-jetted serving platters. When he and Captain Paul Henry(sic) Nargeolet sent the robot ROBIN into the bakery and pantry compartments, they found the rooms squashed and entirely empty. Even the bakery door was missing, torn from it's iron frame and squirted out through the rupture in the stern's side".

END EXTRACT

Michael Cundif
USA

Hi Michael!

I actually asked Mr. Pellegrino this question on Facebook. This was his reply:

“In the mid1990s, decks on the starboard side of the stern were discovered to have been squashed quite flat. A robot could do barely more than shine a light inside, because the height between decks was barely more than 2 feet. We could see that most things, even those bolted to the floor, had been jetted outside and we found items from the pantry and hospital and 3rd class passenger quarters mixed together (apparently in the ejecta, or surge cloud). Surgical tools, cookware, and in a bio-concretion even lamb bones. One concretion was particularly troubling. We returned this material to the stern section starboard ejecta field and did no more landings there (a moratorium). In 2001 we explored the area around the stern's reciprocating engines, a part of the stern that was not stamped down to a total height of about 20 feet. The aft end of the stern also still stands, above starboard and aft propellers that were lifted above F Deck by the ocean-bed impact. In the bow section, we in 2001 got a bot into the crew infirmary - one of the most fascinating places to me: The ship's surgeons were using Chinese herbal medicine - in a time when morphine and cocaine were still front-line in western medicine. Some of the eastern herbal and root medicines remained superior all the way into the late 20th century. (In fact, a reason I sailed with Ballard in late 1986 and eventually made it to the Titanic was that Dr. Jesse A Stoff used some of those remedies because in 1985 they were all that was available to treat my run-away hyper-active immune system [much like the Cytokene Storm that killed early COVID-19 patients] instead of the recommended broad-spectrum chemo other doctors wanted to use, to mostly shut down my bone marrow). Ironically, the rusticles, on today's genetic frontier, are promising to be a deep-ocean pharmacy in their own right.”