The Ismay/Pirrie dinner

[linsChaho]

Hello Im doing some research on the construction of the Titanic and I was having a hard time coming across how Bruce Ismay and Lord Wiliam James Pirrie's meeting came about in the first place to even begin talks on the Olympic class? If anyone knows or has a source Id truely appreciate it.

 

[Southampton]

I don't fully understand your question. Do you mean how/why Lord Pirrie and J. Bruce Ismay got together to begin talks on the Olympic class or are you looking for more information on the meeting itself?

From my research, what I've ever come across was the supposed meeting at Lord Pirrie's Downshire House where Ismay was a dinner guest and where they first discussed the Olympic class. In Titanic: a Journey Through Time, John P. Eaton and Charles A. Haas mention that this dinner took place on an April evening of 1907 and that it was during after-dinner coffee that they conceived Olympic and Titanic.

As for the why, given the history of the partnership between White Star Line and Harland & Wolff that had been settled in 1869 between Thomas H. Ismay and Gustav Christian Schwabe, it's easy to connect it all together and why J. Bruce Ismay and Lord Pirrie decided to sit down together and think of ways to rival Cunard's ships. It was a mutual interest not to fall behind on the North Atlantic race.

 

[Cam Houseman]

From my research, what I've ever come across was the supposed meeting at Lord Pirrie's Downshire House where Ismay was a dinner guest and where they first discussed the Olympic class. In Titanic: a Journey Through Time, John P. Eaton and Charles A. Haas mention that this dinner took place on an April evening of 1907 and that it was during after-dinner coffee that they conceived Olympic and Titanic.

I've actually heard that some don't think that dinner happened, interestingly enough. I'm sticking with it however, its referenced everywhere and none have debunked it.

 

[RiffRanger]

It's very unlikely that the dinner party story is true. The ships were already in development before the summer of 1907. The new gantries at H&W were already under construction at that time, meaning the ships had to be in the design stage long before then. It makes sense, too. Why would White Star wait until after Lusitania and Mauretania were already in service to even plan their response to them? On A Sea of Glass has a whole section dedicated to debunking the "dinner party" myth.

 

[Cam Houseman]

It's very unlikely that the dinner party story is true. The ships were already in development before the summer of 1907. The new gantries at H&W were already under construction at that time, meaning the ships had to be in the design stage long before then. It makes sense, too. Why would White Star wait until after Lusitania and Mauretania were already in service to even plan their response to them? On A Sea of Glass has a whole section dedicated to debunking the "dinner party" myth.

While they were in development by the summer of 1907 yes, its also possible it happened prior to then. As to the Mauretania and Lusitania question, its possible they had no idea the two would be so successful.

 

[RiffRanger]

While they were in development by the summer of 1907 yes, its also possible it happened prior to then. As to the Mauretania and Lusitania question, its possible they had no idea the two would be so successful.

That seems highly unlikely. Lusitania and Mauretania were shockingly large and fast. They were always destined to be popular. Not only that, they were record breaking ships even before they were put in service. White Star inevitably would have thought it necessary to outdo them. There's no way White Star would have waited until the ships were already in service to even plan their response to them.

In any case, the question of whether or not the Olympic-class ships were conceived of at a dinner party with Ismay and Pirrie in the spring of 1907 - which is the prevailing myth - is very easily answered. No, they were not. They were conceived of some considerable time before and preparations for them - namely building the gantries and dredging the channels for them - were already underway before when the dinner party was supposed to have happened.

 

[Mark Chirnside]

It's very unlikely that the dinner party story is true.

The issue from my perspective is the date as opposed to the event itself. Gunter Babler suggested that Ismay's wife got the dates mixed up when she assisted Wilton J. Oldham and that it was earlier than the summer of 1907.

 

[RiffRanger]

The issue from my perspective is the date as opposed to the event itself. Gunter Babler suggested that Ismay's wife got the dates mixed up when she assisted Wilton J. Oldham and that it was earlier than the summer of 1907.

That seems like the most likely scenario. It's certainly plausible - even likely - that the two met over dinner to discuss how to compete with the Cunard ships, perhaps several times, even. But it's obvious that the myth that the ships were conceived of at a specific dinner party in the summer of 1907 is impossible.

 

[Mark Chirnside]

That seems like the most likely scenario. It's certainly plausible - even likely - that the two met over dinner to discuss how to compete with the Cunard ships, perhaps several times, even. But it's obvious that the myth that the ships were conceived of at a specific dinner party in the summer of 1907 is impossible.

Absolutely. The order was first recorded by Harland & Wolff on 30 April 1907.

 

[RiffRanger]

Absolutely. The order was first recorded by Harland & Wolff on 30 April 1907.

On a personal note and coincidentally, I just last month read your book about the Olympic. I found it fascinating. I've been enthralled by the Titanic since I was a child and have always had a passing knowledge but recently I've begun trying to study more in-depth, including into her sisters and other ocean liners of the era. Thank you for your work.

 

[Mike Spooner]

For such a major ship of the day I find it hard to believe that only one meeting to place at Pirrie house in London 1907. That there where other meetings took place before and after the dinner date. The dinner date was probably no more than a progress report.

 

[Michael H. Standart]

>>That seems like the most likely scenario. It's certainly plausible - even likely - that the two met over dinner to discuss how to compete with the Cunard ships, perhaps several times, even.<<

It would have been a lot more amazing...downright astonishing in fact...if they hadn't. An understanding of what a rival is up to is always followed by "Okay, what are we going to do about it?" The brainstorming would have followed from that.

 

[Steven Christian]

>>That seems like the most likely scenario. It's certainly plausible - even likely - that the two met over dinner to discuss how to compete with the Cunard ships, perhaps several times, even.<<

It would have been a lot more amazing...downright astonishing in fact...if they hadn't. An understanding of what a rival is up to is always followed by "Okay, what are we going to do about it?" The brainstorming would have followed from that.

Yes I agree. As soon as they learned of the Luisitania and Mauretania I'm sure somebody in the organization started thinking of a counter to them. And the opposite is probably true also. Once Cunard learned of the Olympic class they countered with the Aquitania. I don't know the exact dates but she was planned before Olympic set sail. Mark C. I'm sure knows all about this. They were rival companies like you said. It would only be good business to keep up with each other. Cheers.

 

[Mark Chirnside]

On a personal note and coincidentally, I just last month read your book about the Olympic. I found it fascinating.

Thanks, I'm really pleased you enjoyed it!