Titanic VS Queen Mary

I don't see it as being 'part of the legend' but I do believe that the passenger list was a very impressive one. In terms of numbers, 1,316 is not excellent, but it's hardly a bad one either considering the time and the coal strike, etc. The sheer number of famous first class passengers does seem unusual to me, however. I forget which source it was, but I do recall it being said in a recent publication that the list may have been unique in transatlantic travel for the sheer number of millionaires aboard.

Best regards

Mark.
 
Dave Gittens,

I don't refute and while it is indeed impressive that the Duchess of Windsor used to have her suite painted to her specifications (of which where can it be found) and Christa Ludwig took 23 pieces of luggage (of which where can it be found) with her, again, Titanic had a ship full of the wealthy and immigrants all on the same voyage, a maiden voyage at that.

A Concorde list in the 90's might compare significantly if one were to gather many of the very rich and famous and also many immigrants searching for a better life and put them all on a brand new Concorde destined for an extreme hurricane, crash it and have very few survive.

How does Bill Gates travel? I have no idea how the chap travels. My guess would be by private jet.

Thanks for the info on Duchess of Windsor and Christa Ludwig.

Mark,

"The sheer number of famous first class passengers does seem unusual to me, however. I forget which source it was, but I do recall it being said in a recent publication that the list may have been unique in transatlantic travel for the sheer number of millionaires aboard."

If you could recall that source I'd be forever grateful, as I'd like to add it to my library and collection. Hope you find it.

Thanks for the info.

Teri
 

Quote:

Her first class passenger list, however, which included John Jacob Astor, one of America's wealthiest men, was remarkable and may well be unsurpassed in the annals of ocean travel. This was the era when wealth equalled celebrity and the Titanic's maiden voyage had clearly attracted an unusual number of the transatlantic elite.





Source: 'Lost Liners' pages 84/5. Madison Press 1997, by Ballard, Marschall, Archbold. Proof-read, contributions, etc. by Eric Sauder, Simon Mills...

Covers Lusitania to Queen Elizabeth and onwards in some detail.
 
Was the passenger list really that special? In my opinion, there were only seven people on that ship who were truly famous: the Astors, the Duff Gordons, Mr. Guggenheim, Archie Butt, and the Countess of Rothes. Before you studied the Titanic, had you ever heard of Ryerson, Harris, and Widener? Unless you live in their hometown, probably not. Some may consider Molly Brown to be a celeb, but that is only true of the Molly of Hollywood. The Margaret of 1912 was socially recognized in Denver and the Western US, but the East Coast knew relativly little about her.
Titanic's list was certainly one of the more star-studded of the day, but there were few international celebrities. Most of Titanic's elite were primarily socialites and not neccesarily famous. For instance, the Thayers were well known in Philidelphia, but thier fame was unknown abroad or in the West.
Granted, seven celebrities is a large number to us, but in 1912, society was a very tight-knit group. The famous travelled in packs and would usually coordinate to be on the same ship. This meant that every so often, a knot of celebrities would appear on board a given superliner. Some knots were bigger and some smaller, and Titanic had a fair sized one on that trip. What is impressive is that so many famous people were going to America instead of to Europe. Spring was usually the time that America's rich were heading abroad for summer vacations. Had she have left in the fall, there would have been many more millionaires aboard returning home.
As a final point, we should remember that most of the "celebrities" often associated with the Titanic weren't well known until the Titanic sank. The Duff Gordons' fame increased exponentially after the controversy of the 5 pounds. Ismay had the same problem.

David
 
Whatever way it's cut, I define ‘famous’ myself as being well-known enough to be in newspapers — not just the large papers. I have many newspaper sources and little time to state so hear, but the following is part of a two-page spread in the ‘Daily Graphic’ entitled ‘some of the Titanic’s notable passengers, with pictures. A host of those other famous are not mentioned, but how many of these do we see in books like Molly B. Astors, Guggenheims, etc.? Most books hardly mention many of those people who are in the list following. When I have more time, I’ll dig out other sources.

Best regards,

Mark.

Mr. & Mrs. Daniel Marvin, ‘prominent New York people’;
JJ. & M. Astor;
Herbert Parsons, ‘formerly congressman for New York city’;
Francis M. Warren, former U.S. Senator for Wyoming;
Mr. Van der Hoei, ‘prominent citizen of Minneapolis’;
Mr. Marschall, ‘well known resident of Washington;
Strauses;
Cardezas;
Mrs. Swift ‘New York society hostess’;
Ms Eustis ‘well known in New York society’;
Mrs. Snyder ‘op.cit’
Mrs. Figler ‘op.cit’
Mrs. Ettlinger ‘op.cit’
Mr. J. J. Borebank, well-known Californian horticulturalist;
Major Butt
Charles Williams, racquets champion
Mr. C. Hays, president of Grand Truck Railroad;
Mr. Christopher Head, ‘ex-Mayor, Chelsea’
Colonel Gracie;
George Eastman;
Mr. J. Ross, ‘professor Wisconsin University’
Mrs. Hernry B. Harris
Mrs. C. E. Stengel
Miss Margaret Graham ‘American society hostess and the wife of well-known racehorse owner’
Mrs. G. Stone ‘well known in American Society’;
Countess of Rothes;
Gladys Cherry;
Mrs. F. Hoyt ‘wife of ex-Govenor of Washington’
Mrs. W. Carter, Pennsylvania.
 
GREAT work as always, Mark. I have always admired your tenacity to go digging for Titanic information. You're on the right road to becoming a fine researcher, in my opinion. You and David Hudson have shown me that age plays no role when it comes to elite researchers. Keep up the good work.

And thanks for taking the time to quote.

Teri
 
Thanks Mark.

The reason we don't see many of these names in books is because most of the weren't on Titanic! It always amazes me how confused some of these newspapers get. "The Times" and "Daily Mirror" are two of the few papers I've seen which don't fall into the trap of confusing individuals with the same initials or surname. For example:

Herbert Parsons: Name not on passenger list - not on board

Van der Hoei was actually "Van der hoef" and a resident of Manhattan NY, not Minneapolis

Mr Marschall: Not on board

Mrs. Figler and Mrs. Ettlinger: Neither names appear on passenger list.

J.J. Borebank was NOT a Californian Horticulturalist, but a real-estate man form Winnipeg (originally from Derbyshire, England). The Californian Borebank was actaully LUTHOR BOREBANK, no relation to John James as far as I know. I believe his picture (with caption) appeared on the 20th April edition of the "Daily Graphic" - the same picture used in the book "Extra Titanic" by Eric Craen.

George Eastman: Not on board. A "Miss Anne K. Eastman", who would have occupied cabin D-31 cancelled at the last minute

"J. Ross" was "J. Hugo Ross" and a Winnipeg businessman, not a professor at Wisconsin University

Margaret Graham and Mrs. F. Hoyt appear on the passenger list, but clearly were not the people listed in the article.

The few we are left with (i.e. the genuine passengers) are all fairly well documented in most Titanic books I've seen.

Best Regards,
Ben
 
Another who was mixed up was Washington Roebling, who was not the famous builder of the Brooklyn bridge but his great nephew (I think).

The quite recent book Titanic:Fortune and Fate manages to get Lady Cynthia Asquith on board. How I'll never know.

The early papers have some really mangled names. some can be deduced, but who the devil was Leonch Eldegrek?
 
Goodness Ben!

That'll teach me to rely on newspapers!

Seriously, the passenger list is one of my weakest areas of 'Titanicalisationalised' knowledge. I knew some - the Marvins, for example. But I must admit that I hadn't heard of several of them. In my newspaper archive, somewhere I have an article regarding the wealth of the passengers and how it was special. I'll try and dig it out later tonight.

Teri,

Thanks for your 'thank you.' Age is no barrier to enthusiasm and research - as I think Brandon W., Nigel Bryant and David Hudson and several others have proved. I just wish one of my old Science lecturers had thought the same. I told him how I knew the subjects:


Quote:

'If it squirms, it's Biology; if it stinks, it's Chemistry; if it doesn't work it's Physics and if you can't understand it it's Mathematics!' - Doctor Magnus (Forgotthelastname)





Best regards,

Mark.
 
Hi Mark,

If it stinks, it's chemistry

No, if it makes you want to smash a burette over your head and pour Copper Nitrate over the notebook of the prat who enjoys doing Mole calculations, it's chemistry!!
proud.gif


I called a halt on all that as soon as I could!

Glad you found the passenger info helpful, and don't worry, I've got serious work to do in the forensics/physical department. There are very few "all-rounders". Hope you manage to find that article.

Hi Dave,

Yes, Roebling is one of the more common exapmles of this sort of confusion. I've often seen him listed as "Col. Roebling", too.

Re. Asquith. That one had me confused for a while! On page 47 of T:F&F, she is even quoted as having recalled:

"It must be admitted that a very large fraction of our time was spent in dressing and undressing. We were forever changing our clothes, a custom that necessitated travelling with a mountain of luggage."

Best Regards,
Ben
 
Daily Mirror, April 16th 1912: ‘At a moderate estimate, the passengers represent a wealth of at least £50,000,000. two of them alone are worth £20,000,000.’

(Table of wealthy passengers’ exact fortunes, including William Dulles and Emil Taussig.)

It was known that Titanic had collided with an iceberg, but it was believed that she still floated:


Quote:

‘But the inventions of man proved mightier than the brute force of the inanimate elements. The unsinkable ship builded (sic) by all the resources of centuries of science withstood the shock, messages carried by the harnessed waves of the air brought speedy help, and every life, it seems, was saved, and the ship herself proceeded unaided to port.’





Other details of Titanic include ‘two mile walk onboard’ without passing the same point twice. ‘Lie a smart seaside resort, the Titanic — infinitely more commodious than a hotel — provides every luxury a wealthy pleasure-loving public can wish.’ This and several other papers which were pre-sinking certainly give the impression that Olympic — and more so, Titanic — were really regarded as the most luxurious in the world, in addition to supremely safe.

These papers really are a goldmine of information. Olympic's maiden voyage was certainly more celebrated than Titanic's, but her press coverage was so much less.

Best regards,

Mark.
 
Mark,

Pardon my late posting to ya. Was in Las Vegas attending my sister's wedding.

You are right that Brandon W, Nigel and David Hudson and others deserve recognition for their outstanding research work and am sorry I forgot to mention them. Your old Science lecturer must have cut up too many rats!

Teri
 
Smiles and Cakes to ya Bev ~

No, I did not lose any money on the tables because I don't gamble much. If I put money into a machine, I expect money back! It's a risk I just don't care to take. Plus, I spent way too much money on the hotel and food anyways! Yumm Yumm!

Now check this out: I went to the Rio Suite & Hotel to go see the "permanent" Titanic exhibition, and it wasn't there anymore! It was supposed to be a "permanent" exhibition, but I guess even permanent ones get unpermanent sometimes! You can imagine my surprise that it was gone. I was going to take pictures this second time around, but now I won't be able to. They said it was removed over a year ago, so I'm thinking they removed it shortly after I saw it last year right around this same time. Oh well, guess I'll have to travel to some other part of the country to attend another Titanic exhibition. Later on I'll check into the Rio to see where it got moved to, if anywhere. I can't imagine that they would shackle the Grand staircase and the Cafe Parisan.

Teri
 
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