Tool Manifest for Use of Engineers & Electricians

[Seumas]

Has any manifest survived of the number of and different kinds of tools provided for by the White Star Line for use by their engineering crews in an Olympic class ship's engine rooms, boiler rooms and dynamos ?

Were the engineers and electricians allowed to bring their own personal tools aboard if they so wished ?

Thank You.

 

[Steven Christian]

Were the engineers and electricians allowed to bring their own personal tools aboard if they so wished ?
I'm sure they did. Most if not all electricians and mechanics have their own tool kits specialized for what works for them. I'm a retired electrician and Instrument and Control technican. I had (still have ) 4 different tool pouches and 2 tool bags plus a tool box full of different types of meters and test equiptment I used. They were all customize for different equipt I worked on. I'm sure it was the same in their day. The only exception to that was when I worked on aircraft in the Navy. You checked out a standardized tool kit. It was inventoried when you got it and re-inventoried when you checked it in. If a tool was missing the aircraft was grounded until it was found and accounted for. Only the authorized tool kits were allowed.

 

[Tim Aldrich]

Seumas, I've been thinking about your question for a few days and would like to share some of the thoughts that have been rattling around in my head. I'm a mechanic by trade and a major tool addict.

• My gut tells me that most of the tools required for typical repairs and maintenance were likely provided by the company. Especially so for the reciprocating engines and other large equipment. Big parts = big tools that aren't moved around easily.
• A personal tool kit would have been a luxury that the average Joe probably couldn't afford.
• If you search for photos of Olympic's damage from the collision with Hawke you'll find photos from inside the ship. In the shaft tunnel photos I've looked at I could see some spanners hanging on bulkheads in what looked to be purpose-made brackets. Maybe those tools were hung there for quick access.
• In the same vein as Mr. Christian's comment regarding checking out standardized tool kits, having a tool crib aboard ship makes perfect sense. Perhaps each department had their own tool crib?

 

[Mike Spooner]

I can't see why the White Star engineers would have their own tools? As on board there are the 8 H&W guarantee workers who will have their own tools to fix any problems!

 

[Mark Baber]

Mike, can you point me to a source that the Guarantee Group members carried tools with them? This is not a subject I know anything about.

 

[Mike Spooner]

Mark,
The Guarantee group workers are skilled tradesmen and only doing a temporary job for the maiden crossing. Skilled tradesmen will have pride in the work and will have their own basic hand tools. I know for myself what its like to have your own personal hand tools. You feel more comfortable with them and look after them far better than company tools. You also don't waste time in looking for company tools that could well be in poor condition as so many others have used them.
The company will of course supply the special tools as required. Even the ship was brand new and WSL had supplied the engineers with a good set of new tools, it doesn't take long before the tools go missing or lost! As personal tools there is a far better chance of not been lost. Believe me they is nothing more frustrating having to look for tools which are not in the right place and restricting you getting on with the job.

 

[Seumas]

Were the engineers and electricians allowed to bring their own personal tools aboard if they so wished ?
I'm sure they did. Most if not all electricians and mechanics have their own tool kits specialized for what works for them. I'm a retired electrician and Instrument and Control technican. I had (still have ) 4 different tool pouches and 2 tool bags plus a tool box full of different types of meters and test equiptment I used. They were all customize for different equipt I worked on. I'm sure it was the same in their day. The only exception to that was when I worked on aircraft in the Navy. You checked out a standardized tool kit. It was inventoried when you got it and re-inventoried when you checked it in. If a tool was missing the aircraft was grounded until it was found and accounted for. Only the authorized tool kits were allowed.

Cheers Steve

Seumas, I've been thinking about your question for a few days and would like to share some of the thoughts that have been rattling around in my head. I'm a mechanic by trade and a major tool addict.

• My gut tells me that most of the tools required for typical repairs and maintenance were likely provided by the company. Especially so for the reciprocating engines and other large equipment. Big parts = big tools that aren't moved around easily.
• A personal tool kit would have been a luxury that the average Joe probably couldn't afford.
• If you search for photos of Olympic's damage from the collision with Hawke you'll find photos from inside the ship. In the shaft tunnel photos I've looked at I could see some spanners hanging on bulkheads in what looked to be purpose-made brackets. Maybe those tools were hung there for quick access.
• In the same vein as Mr. Christian's comment regarding checking out standardized tool kits, having a tool crib aboard ship makes perfect sense. Perhaps each department had their own tool crib?

Thanks Tim, another good comment.

Would you have any idea what kind of special tools they would need in an Olympic class ship's engine room ? Any that would be obsolete or rarely used these days ?

I had forgotten that a complete set of tools for a marine engineer would be expensive. Probably only those engineers who came from an upper middle class background owned their own.

It would be good if some documentation survives or can be discovered showing the company provided tool manifest and all the kinds they provided but sadly one probably does not exist. I'd love to be proved wrong though.

Mark,
The Guarantee group workers are skilled tradesmen and only doing a temporary job for the maiden crossing. Skilled tradesmen will have pride in the work and will have their own basic hand tools. I know for myself what its like to have your own personal hand tools. You feel more comfortable with them and look after them far better than company tools. You also don't waste time in looking for company tools that could well be in poor condition as so many others have used them.
The company will of course supply the special tools as required. Even the ship was brand new and WSL had supplied the engineers with a good set of new tools, it doesn't take long before the tools go missing or lost! As personal tools there is a far better chance of not been lost. Believe me they is nothing more frustrating having to look for tools which are not in the right place and restricting you getting on with the job.

Is there a source that they had tools with them though ?

The Guarantee Group were there to carefully look, listen and take a copious amount of notes on what needed improving or replacing altogether, not to make any "on the spot" repairs.

It's highly doubtful that Thomas Andrews, Chief Engineer Bell or Chief Electrician Sloan would have allowed any of the Guarantee Group to tinker about with the engines or dynamos. When the ship was at sea only the legally certified merchant marine engineers and electricians could do that.

 

[Mark Baber]

Is there a source that they had tools with them though ?

That was my question, too, Suemas. Mike, I understand your reasoning, but I don't know of any source for the proposition that the members of the Guarantee Group brought their tools with them. Do you?

 

[Mike Spooner]

The reason why the H&W guarantee group are on board is to finish off the outstanding work, and are under there boss Thomas Andrews supervision. I am quite sure the engineers in the engines and electrical department can cope well on there own sorting out there problems. But as for the unfinished work in the furnish sections where I can see the guarantee group would of brought on there own hand tools. Where to find the tools? 12,400ft under the Atlantic Ocean.

 

[Seumas]

The reason why the H&W guarantee group are on board is to finish off the outstanding work, and are under there boss Thomas Andrews supervision. I am quite sure the engineers in the engines and electrical department can cope well on there own sorting out there problems. But as for the unfinished work in the furnish sections where I can see the guarantee group would of brought on there own hand tools. Where to find the tools? 12,400ft under the Atlantic Ocean.

Do you have a source that definitely says they went aboard with tools and were there to perform work ?

Harland & Wolff sent a "guarantee group" on many of their big ships, never to do physical labour but to carefully record a wealth of information and data on their assigned ship's condition and performance and report back to H&W so that corrections may be made at a later date.

No-one denies that the ship still needed some work done on her. I recall reading that the decoration of some of the communal bathrooms was not complete, one story of a door being hard to open by a badly fitted carpet and that the cabin heating in second class was on the blink. Some of this work would also have needed more than just one or two men on the job.

Andrews and Chisholm would have kept their men busy taking measurements, taking temperatures, timing on a stopwatch, questioning the crew (and maybe also passengers) for detailed feedback and all the while taking down masses upon masses of notes upon every little thing they consider worthy of reporting aboard ship. The guarantee group would not be hammering, sawing, painting or wiring up anything.

I am highly sceptical that the H&W Group ever boarded RMS Titanic with tools in their baggage. Of course if there is a source that says otherwise I am happy to be proved wrong.

 

[Tim Aldrich]

Mike, can you point me to a source that the Guarantee Group members carried tools with them? This is not a subject I know anything about.

Mr. Baber, I cannot direct you to a source directly related to Titanic or even all of the guarantee group but I do have something to contribute, mainly things that pertain to the joiners who may have been part of the guarantee group. Since I can't point to a reference, point at Titanic and say "See, that proves it." I'll just provide the buzz words and you can do your own browsing.

Christopher Schwarz, Lost Art Press, "The Anarchist's Tool Chest" (I recommend that book) and my own video that shows (mostly) what a traditional joiner/cabinet maker's tool chest would contain. Joinery and cabinet making remained, largely, unchanged until the 1930s so one could reasonably assume a typical tool chest would have been hauled aboard Titanic.

I could go on about all sorts or probable things but maybe it's best that I keep this post brief and the discussion can progress to the bits and bobs.

 

[Seumas]

Mr. Baber, I cannot direct you to a source directly related to Titanic or even all of the guarantee group but I do have something to contribute, mainly things that pertain to the joiners who may have been part of the guarantee group. Since I can't point to a reference, point at Titanic and say "See, that proves it." I'll just provide the buzz words and you can do your own browsing.

Christopher Schwarz, Lost Art Press, "The Anarchist's Tool Chest" (I recommend that book) and my own video that shows (mostly) what a traditional joiner/cabinet maker's tool chest would contain. Joinery and cabinet making remained, largely, unchanged until the 1930s so one could reasonably assume a typical tool chest would have been hauled aboard Titanic.

I could go on about all sorts or probable things but maybe it's best that I keep this post brief and the discussion can progress to the bits and bobs.

Thanks Tim, it's great to see the exact gear that John Hutchinson and John Maxwell, the ship's carpenter and joiner (can't remember who did which) would have had in their workshop. And no safety goggles either !

William Campbell (the H&W group's chippy) who went aboard would most likely have been "armed" only with a note book and measuring tape rather than a toolbox, it was what they now would call a "research & development" mission rather than a labouring one. He'd be making an exhaustive inspection of all the ships wooden fittings during the voyage and noting what could have been done better or indeed what needed replacing entirely.

Would you have any inkling as to what different kinds of tools would be needed by the engineers and electricians aboard ships like the Olympic and Titanic ? What would they need to keep these huge, complex, sensitive steam engines running healthily ? I'd love to read of the things they would be using in 1912.

 

[Mike Spooner]

Mark,
I do not know of an infantry list of hand tools that the guarantee group had on board. But It stands to common sense that they did have their own tools. After all this is a brand new ship fallen behind time to complete ship for the schedule date of 10th April. That to leads to it own problems when under pressure and rush. Has a nasty habit where more mistakes are made. No doubt many doors and draws may need adjustment here and there. I am quite sure the White Star engineers would also have their own hand tools, but no infantry list to. Did Thomas Andrews have an infantry list of his drawing instruments? Come to think about it was there even a company list of the tools on board?
The idea the guarantee group where on board to check the performance figures. Must be bit of an insults to the skill engineers on board. After all the running gear is the same as the Olympic ship. If they haven't learnt from that ship, shame on them.
The only thing I can think has change significantly from Olympic to Titanic is the ventilation system. As found on Olympic was in adequate of been from too cold to too hot. Then there is a case for the H&W workers to be on board.

 

[Seumas]

Mark,
I do not know of an infantry list of hand tools that the guarantee group had on board. But It stands to common sense that they did have their own tools. After all this is a brand new ship fallen behind time to complete ship for the schedule date of 10th April. That to leads to it own problems when under pressure and rush. Has a nasty habit where more mistakes are made. No doubt many doors and draws may need adjustment here and there. I am quite sure the White Star engineers would also have their own hand tools, but no infantry list to. Did Thomas Andrews have an infantry list of his drawing instruments? Come to think about it was there even a company list of the tools on board?
The idea the guarantee group where on board to check the performance figures. Must be bit of an insults to the skill engineers on board. After all the running gear is the same as the Olympic ship. If they haven't learnt from that ship, shame on them.
The only thing I can think has change significantly from Olympic to Titanic is the ventilation system. As found on Olympic was in adequate of been from too cold to too hot. Then there is a case for the H&W workers to be on board.

Yes, it's been well known for a long time that the ship wasn't completed. That has been posted above. In fact I also asked if there was a manifest of tools in my opening post.

It's also been been long established that these trips by H&W employees were to record a wealth of information and data on the ships condition and performance. They were not there to perform any work, that would be done in port. "Inventory" is the word I think you were looking for, not "infantry".

They couldn't just take Olympic's performance as being fine for the Titanic. Every individual ship has to be checked. Every part and every fitting has to be in top order. Just because the shipyard workers installed something that was fine and dandy for the Olympic, it does not guarantee at all that they did the same for the Titanic or any other ship, human error still occurs. That's why these groups were sent out, to check every little blessed detail.

The union that the Titanic's engineers and electricians were most likely members of, the Imperial Merchant Service Guild, may have had quite a lot to say about uncertified marine engineers and electrician's doing technical work aboard the ship whilst at sea. White Star would not want that kind of bother.

Again, you need to find a source that says the H&W group had tools with them. It's as simple as that. Perhaps even an account of surviving passengers and crew of seeing civilian men at work whilst the ship was at sea.

There are a few things I think might have been said and done aboard the Titanic, but crucially can I find a source to prove them ? Not in the slightest..

 

[Mark Baber]

Mr. Baber, I cannot direct you to a source directly related to Titanic or even all of the guarantee group

Mark,
I do not know of an infantry list of hand tools that the guarantee group had on board.

Thanks.