Tool Manifest for Use of Engineers & Electricians

[Mike Spooner]

Mark,
I apology for my spelling mistake of inventory!
Find a source to prove them! Since the log book which is the equivalent to a black box of an aircraft is lost. We can never say for sure 100% what happen that night. Therefore we can speculate and probe our thoughts what may of happen. If the ET site just relayed on source to prove it. More than half the site would be closed down!

 

[Seumas]

Mark,
I apology for my spelling mistake of inventory!
Find a source to prove them! Since the log book which is the equivalent to a black box of an aircraft is lost. We can never say for sure 100% what happen that night. Therefore we can speculate and probe our thoughts what may of happen. If the ET site just relayed on source to prove it. More than half the site would be closed down!

I'm really struggling to understand why the H&W group's taking tools aboard (which there is no proof at all that they ever did) would somehow be considered worthy of entering in either the Captain's log or the Chief Engineer's log ?

Once again, we know that the established practice at H&W was to send a team of men out to record information and data on a ships performance and general condition. This is a job that would involve "brains" rather than "brawn" and that's why Andrews and Chisholm chose their men.

In this instance we do not have any proof at all that the H&W guarantee group boarded the ship with the intent of performing physical labour on tasks that are normally carried out in port or in the shipyard.

I would agree with you that "we can speculate and probe our thoughts what may of happen", that is always a healthy thing to do. However one doesn't state ones thoughts or speculation to be fact without proper evidence to back it up.

As an example of how it really is done, take the authors of the wonderful, slap bang up to date, new history of the disaster "On A Sea of Glass".

Messr's Fitch, Kent Lanyon and Wormstedt wrote their book based on documented hard facts obtained as a result of many gruelling years of research in archives and libraries and subsequently listed their sources. Because they are dedicated professionals, they did not do what a silly pseudo-historian like the late Robin Gardiner frequently did and insert their own thoughts as facts or make speculations with the insinuation that they are facts. If anyone were to query what they wrote in "On A Sea of Glass" the authors can then can refer that person to the primary sources they used and settle the matter.

 

[Roger Southern]

Purely speaking about current practice. Maiden voyages or first voyages of any ship following major dry-docking are always accompanied by a Guarantee Group normally referred to by the crew as 'Welsh Wizards'. Their job is to rectify any minor problems during the first couple of trips or settling down period be they mechanical, hotel systems or electrical. Some did indeed carry their own specialist tools. The source for this is my wife who was a senior purser with P&O in the 80's. Would it have been different in the early 1900's?

Roger

 

[Mike Spooner]

I am still struggling understand why the Guarantee Group did not have there own private tools aboard. Now may be wrong here looking at the new modern cruise ships which are far more sophisticated in technology than the Titanic ever was below the water line. I have never hear of shipyards sending out there workers out on maiden voyages. Only if there are a problems!
As for Titanic technology below water line was rather old tried and tested. Which someway has it good points for doing so. It begs the question why do we need H&W workers testing for performance figures on old technology which they are very familiar with! Like the two 1000 ton triple expansion engines. Which has taken one step backward in technology. As quadruple expansion engines were used on previous White Star ships. The generators made by WH Allen, steering gear, refrigerating plant, boilers it all old well established technology. The only new technology is perhaps the turbine. Then again H&W never made the engine, made under licence by John Brown shipyard. I would never want H&W tinkling with that engine as the expertise lies with John Brown or better still Charles Parsons. The new technology of the ship lies above the water line where the three classes of passenger comfort is setting new standards. As the ship was never quite finished in the passenger sections that is were one needs the Guarantee workings to try and finish off the out standing work under the supervisor of Thomas Andrews. If there are test figures to take in why go any further than Queenstown? However there could be a case for the new improve ventilation system over the Olympic.
By the way I agree the On A Sea of Glass is a good book looking into the theories' who said what!

 

[Seumas]

I am still struggling understand why the Guarantee Group did not have there own private tools aboard.

Well provide a source then that says otherwise. As it stands there is not a scrap of evidence that they did.

As for Titanic technology below water line was rather old tried and tested. Which someway has it good points for doing so. It begs the question why do we need H&W workers testing for performance figures on old technology which they are very familiar with!

That's because although ship X may have the exact same engines as ship Y it offers no guarantee that they will perform the same. Despite trying for centuries, human hands cannot build something that is 100% perfect. There is still always something that isn't just quite right and needs attending too. That's why the group would have been making intense inspections and taking down an eye bleeding amount of information and data on their performance.

As the ship was never quite finished in the passenger sections that is were one needs the Guarantee workings to try and finish off the out standing work under the supervisor of Thomas Andrews.

Again we you need to provide a source for that statement. I have never read any survivors recollections who recalled witnessed civilian workmen wiring, painting, hammering, sawing or chiselling away at anything aboard ship after leaving Southampton.

If there are test figures to take in why go any further than Queenstown?

Because that would be shoddy and lazy. H&W had sky high standards for the time. They want information and data on how their new ship will perform on a full voyage from Southampton to New York and back again. A quick "snapshot" simply will not do.

By the way I agree the On A Sea of Glass is a good book looking into the theories' who said what!

If it's of interest to anyone I got an e-mail from Amberley Publishing yesterday saying that a new UK edition "should be in stock by 10/6".

 

[Julian Atkins]

I think Mike is under a misapprehension here.

A ship must have all the tools required to do any repairs at sea. Any reasonably sized ship would also have a toolroom, which is not a room as such full of tools, but a room with a lathe etc. So there was the advantage of making tools in the toolroom that would be required.

The problem with Mike's hypothesis is that when the Harland and Wolff people would leave Titanic, then they would take their tools with them. So Titanic would by necessity to have had it's own tools.

Then there is a matter of degree. It is one thing to use a screwdriver and chisel to alter a cabin door, but quite another to tighten cylinder head bolts on the huge expansion steam engines down below. The way crew were assigned to a ship in 1912 using antiquated labour laws would of necessity require Titanic to have it's own supply of tools (much of them very specialised and big and heavy for the engines) and the idea that reliance was placed on individuals supplying their own tools is quite nonsensical, and in any event they weren't paid enough to buy even the basic tools in 1912. And they could skip ship and if Mike is correct no tools to do the jobs required as they would take their tools with them.

That pilfering of Company tools did not go on is undeniable. I have quite a well provisioned home workshop with lathe mill and pillar drill, and quite a bit of my tools and instruments are marked "WD" with the arrow mark and date from WW2. My brother served for 26 years in the Royal Navy and never had his own tool kit on ship despite being in the engine rooms, and all I ever got from him was a lot of NAAFI tobacco and a few Dormer drills!

Cheers,

Julian

 

[Mike Spooner]

Well provide a source then that says otherwise. As it stands there is not a scrap of evidence that they did?

Great words but if we said that about every thing discussed on ET more than half the topics would never be raised!

Because that would be shoddy and lazy. H&W had sky high standards for the time. They want information and data on how their new ship will perform on a full voyage from Southampton to New York and back again. A quick "snapshot" simply will not do.
Where does one find that in writing?
Much as I appreciate your comments but we have to except speculation since the log book was lost with Titanic, followed by our thoughts of interpretation what happen on that fatal maiden crossing. Thank god for the 700 who survive to tell the story. If they had gone down with the ship to, what else left to discuss?
We may be at cross purpose why I think the guarantee group had there own hand tools aboard? If ones read the On A Sea Of Glass book. In my book page 56 and on of all the problems in trying to complete the ship on time for the maiden crossing.
It would appear at Southampton there was lots of materials to be loaded on but never were! (time is the enemy) In the second class area were not fully furnished, including the lavatories! One section only half had been put in place!
The Guarantee group would of been a great company honour to be on board. But the idea they are just there to look at performance figures when there is much other work to do in completing the ship.! Having your own hand tools is a far more efficient way to complete the work.
If you are concern of the noise the H&W workers may make and an irritation to the passengers. I am quite sure White Star would thought of that to and pick times like meal times to do the work. They have another advantage since the second and first class sections are less than 45% full. I would of thought they group the passengers cabins nearer to one section of the ship, and let the workers quietly get on with the work that was possible to do so.
Just my practical thoughts of the matter?

 

[Seumas]

Well provide a source then that says otherwise. As it stands there is not a scrap of evidence that they did?

Great words but if we said that about every thing discussed on ET more than half the topics would never be raised!

Because that would be shoddy and lazy. H&W had sky high standards for the time. They want information and data on how their new ship will perform on a full voyage from Southampton to New York and back again. A quick "snapshot" simply will not do.
Where does one find that in writing?
Much as I appreciate your comments but we have to except speculation since the log book was lost with Titanic, followed by our thoughts of interpretation what happen on that fatal maiden crossing. Thank god for the 700 who survive to tell the story. If they had gone down with the ship to, what else left to discuss?
We may be at cross purpose why I think the guarantee group had there own hand tools aboard? If ones read the On A Sea Of Glass book. In my book page 56 and on of all the problems in trying to complete the ship on time for the maiden crossing.
It would appear at Southampton there was lots of materials to be loaded on but never were! (time is the enemy) In the second class area were not fully furnished, including the lavatories! One section only half had been put in place!
The Guarantee group would of been a great company honour to be on board. But the idea they are just there to look at performance figures when there is much other work to do in completing the ship.! Having your own hand tools is a far more efficient way to complete the work.
If you are concern of the noise the H&W workers may make and an irritation to the passengers. I am quite sure White Star would thought of that to and pick times like meal times to do the work. They have another advantage since the second and first class sections are less than 45% full. I would of thought they group the passengers cabins nearer to one section of the ship, and let the workers quietly get on with the work that was possible to do so.
Just my practical thoughts of the matter?

Look mate, we are boring and annoying everyone else. Let's just wrap this parcel up.

if you want to believe that the Harland and Wolff workers went aboard with tools and were performing physical labour rather than recording much needed information and data, then that's cool. For my part I do not believe they ever did so.

However, if you can find proof that they did, I will be the first person to congratulate you, you have my word.

Now to return this thread to what it was actually about in the first place. The engineers and the electricians of RMS Titanic - what kind of tools would they have had and is any kind of tool manifest for the ship is known to exist ?