Tyrell and Julia Cavendish

[Brian Ahern]

Thanks, Martin.

And you're right about there being two sons - Henry Siegel Cavendish and Geoffrey Manners Cavendish. One of them was still alive at the time I started this thread. A link to a family tree is posted earlier in the thread. Some of the grandchildren married into fairly well known families - Rokeby-Johnson and Aliaga-Kelly (or at least families whose names I've come across elsewhere).

It seems that Julia and Tyrell were aquainted with the Duff Gordons and the Countess of Rothes. I'd love to know how much Julia mixed with the world after being widowed (and after the scandal that befell her father) and what her boys did with their lives.

 

[Martin Williams]

Which reminds me: I once read a post by Randy Bryan Bigham which really piqued my curiosity about the relationship between Lady Duff Gordon and Julia Cavendish. I've searched but I can't now find the specific thread - apologies. Randy, I think you mentioned that, in late 1912, the widowed Mrs Cavendish was present at a party Lucy gave for her debutante niece? This suggests to me at least a degree of friendship between the two women post-sinking. I wonder if you can shed more light on this - was Julia a patron of Lucile? Did they move in the same social circles? Your insights, as ever, would be much appreciated.

 

[Brian Ahern]

According to Ellis Island records, Julia was on the waves pretty soon after her ordeal.

She arrived in New York on July 10, 1912 with her sons and Nellie Barber on the Kronprinz Wilhelm. I guess she wanted to be near her roots, but to have them with her. It said she was going to her father in Mamaroneck, New York.

 

[Brian Ahern]

I forgot to mention - her info on the official paperwork puts her at 5'2". I always pictured her as tall.

If anyone hasn't discovered www.ellisisland.org yet, I highly recommend it.

 

[Jason D. Tiller]

quote:

If anyone hasn't discovered www.ellisisland.org yet, I highly recommend it.

I'll second that, Brian. That site is a goldmine of information on passengers.​

 

[Martin Williams]

That's jolly interesting. I'd say she was pretty brave to get back onto the Atlantic so soon after surviving the worst shipwreck in history (and losing her husband in the process). Every day at sea must have been agony for her.

I know that she was American by birth so I suppose it isn't surprising she wanted to be with her extended family for extra support at such a difficult time. Do we know how long she stayed in the States before returning to England? I think she never remarried?

As you say, it is surprising to discover that Julia was petite. I too had imagined a statuesque woman!

 

[Brian Ahern]

I've always assumed she never remarried - she died with the name Cavendish. But then Eloise Smith and Rene Harris both had multiple husbands and died with the names Smith and Harris.

I'm only just learning to navigate the Ellis Island records. I think it only has records of when people arrive and not when they sail out again. Also, the list that Julia and her boys were on was a list of aliens (so she was an English subject). I'm not sure if her father or other family members made the trip with her, since he obviously wouldn't have been on that list.

BTW, searching those records shows that any info you get on them should be taken with a grain of salt. We've always laughed in my family about how my grandmother (who we think was born in 1904) lied about her age. Turns out it was a family trait. My great-grandmother sailed home from Havana five years younger than when she went. My great-aunt sailed home from Havana at the age of 27. Later that year, she sailed in from Europe on the Mauretania at the age of 32. The following year, she arrived from Havana and was magically 27 again! Was entering false information at Ellis Island perjury? It was THAT important to have the person stamping their passport not know their real age?

What is more strange is that the Stengels sailed into New York in 1910 at the ages of 32 and 30. When they were on the Titanic, they were something like 54 and 43. I assume 32 and 30 must have been some kind of error, and not a deliberate attempt on their part to conceal their ages.

 

[Martin Williams]

I think your assumption may well be correct. Julia Cavendish seems to have died a widow - if memory serves, the peerage I consulted (which dated from the early 1950s) makes no mention of a second husband.

I'll say again - her courage in crossing the ocean so soon after the 'Titanic' really impresses me!

Brian - I've just come across your list of 'favourite passengers' on another thread. You and I seem to share very much the same interests, not just in the well-known first-class passengers but also in some of the more shadowy ones. Mrs Lindstrom and the Penascos are three very good examples. What kind of stories could THEY tell about upper-class life in the further corners of Europe at this time?

 

[Michael H. Standart]

Her personal courage may have had nothing to do with it. Whatever anyone's reasons for making a transatlantic trip, you couldn't take the train or even a plane. If you wanted and/or needed to get to the other side, it was a ship or nothing. There were no other options.

 

[Brian Ahern]

What you say is true, Michael. It was interesting how it varied. Some survivors who lived many years afterwards - Lily Potter comes to mind - never set foot on a ship again.

Others - Lady DG, Emily Ryerson, Annie May Stengel, the Taylors, Robert Daniel - continued to sail frequently. I suppose the level of difficulty - or lack thereof- in getting on a ship again was different for everyone.

Martin, it is nice to have someone on the board who's interested in many of the same oft-ignored passengers I am.

Mrs. Lindstrom's family of origin is fairly well documented, though I've never uncovered anything regarding her own branch. It's interesting that her sister was married to an American. I won't pretend to be an expert on Sweden - have only spent a week of my life there (but loved it!). My impression, however, is that it is a class conscious society to a degree that would surprise many outsiders. It can only have been more so in 1912. I wonder if Mrs. Lindstrom's blueblooded sister was often taken for a lucky immigrant in New York, and if that bothered her.

I've never found anything on the family of Mrs. Penasco's second husband, the baron. Need to really do some digging there on some rainy day soon.

 

[Martin Williams]

However that might be (and I'm aware that John Maxtone-Graham called his wonderful book 'The Only Way To Cross' for good reason!), I'm not sure that I myself would have relished the thought of a return trip across the Atlantic - not if I'd been in Julia's circumstances. Much as I wouldn't relish the prospect of flying anywhere in the near future if I'd just been involved in a scary incident on a 747. I'm afraid I'd just stay put!

Brian - I have a particular affection for the Spanish, having lived with a houseful during my time at university. The story of the Penascos is so sad, when one considers their age and their status as newly-weds. In their case, and in that of Mrs Lindstrom, I find myself contemplating the extra dimension of fear involved in being evacuated from a sinking ship in mid-Atlantic when you understand barely a word of English.

Do we know why the Penascos were en route to the States? Was it just an extended honeymoon jaunt or were they ultimately hoping to settle somewhere? Or at least, invest in property? Perhaps in South America?

 

[Michael H. Standart]

>>I'm not sure that I myself would have relished the thought of a return trip across the Atlantic<<

Some didn't and it's hard to blame them. Having a ship sunk from underneath your feet isn't exactly the sort of event that leads to sweet dreams. Especially if you have to listen to the screams of nearly 1500 people who are freezing to death. Some never got over it, but I think it's a safe bet that some either did or they just dealt with it somehow. The people of that day tended to be a very tough breed, even for all the genteel trappings, and pretty matter of fact about such things. On some level, I think they dealt with death far better then a lot of people do today.

Still, if you had business on the other side of the ocean, it was a ship or nothing.

 

[Brian Ahern]

Martin, according to Judith Gellar, the Penascos were just crossing for fun and were disobeying Victor's mother - who controlled the purse strings - in doing so. According to Gellar, it was an impulsive decision made while they were in Paris and they left Victor's manservant behind to send postcards throwing everyone off their trail.

Gellar's version is the only one I know of.

 

[James Hayward]

On the subject of Tyrell and Julia Cavendish, I have come across some more information on them as part of my research into links with the Titanic and my home county of Suffolk.

Someone on this thread has mentioned that Tyrell was a Member of Parliament, but I think this must be a mistake. At any rate, I have not found any evidence of this. On the contrary, it has been suggested that one of the reasons he was planning to move his family to Suffolk permanently was that he was keen to get into Parliament and had his eye on a safe Tory seat such as Bury St Edmunds.

There's lots of interesting information on the couple, particularly on the subject of the memorial hall Julia paid to have built in the little Suffolk village the family were intending to move to before the tragedy, on the Thurston village website www.thurston-village.co.uk.

If you click on the link "Cavendish Hall" and then "Cavendish Hall History", you'll open on window which contains some fascinating background information on her generous gift, and some extracts from family correspondence, including part of a letter from Julia to her elder son Henry in 1961, only two years before she died. She wrote: "I have always wanted to speak to you and Geoff about your father, but I found it difficult to do so ........ your father had a keen sense of humour and was very amusing and a good speaker - deeply interested in politics - a good shot and fisherman, and loved his home and children.".

It seems that, like so many of the survivors, and quite understandably, Julia found it deeply painful to recount any of her experiences in the tragedy.

The memorial hall still stands, much refurbished thanks to a National Lottery grant in 2001.

James

 

[Brian Ahern]

James - I can't thank you enough for supplying this.

Wait till Martin sees it!