I wonder if she was in touch with Mrs Hanson before her contact with Walter Lord? If this Hanson was an imposter is it possible that Lord introduced them. If not then is there another Vera Hanson? Perhap there is something in the Lord archives as per correspondence with Mrs Fierer?When Titanic survivor, Elizabeth Dowdell Fierer, attended the New York City premiere of "A Night to Remember" in February, 1959, she stated that she was still in contact with the young girl girl she cared for on the Titanic - and subsequently, saved. She stated that "I still correspond with the young girl I rescued from the Titanic, though she is now Mrs. Vera Hanson and lives in London."
There is this 1910 marriage record:there is some doubt if the two were legally married
There is this 1910 marriage record:
Name: Estelle Weil
Gender: Female
Marriage Date: 1910
Marriage Place: New Jersey, USA
Spouse: Walter Emanuel
Binney killied himself apparently accidentally from an overdose, her next husband also killed himself from an overdose, both after very brief marriages… is there a pattern emerging? By 1917 Elise had had four husbands with two to go… those we know about anyway! Elise’s later life is not so well documented yet. I wonder if she herself left a will as it might help lead to Virginia?She then married a journalist named Harold Binney and although the marriage lasted just over a year (due to his untimely death)
I knew Harold Binney died of an overdose but not that it was suicide. Can you please introduce me to the sources? I knew that Elise went though other marriages and relationships but have no details. But like you say, there certainly seems to be a pattern.Binney killied himself apparently accidentally from an overdose, her next husband also killed himself from an overdose, both after very brief marriages… is there a pattern emerging?
By 1924 Virginia was 19 years old and AFAIK was living in Paris with Elise till then. By then she had access to her father and stepfather's wills. This is an excerpt from the latter:Elise’s later life is not so well documented yet. I wonder if she herself left a will as it might help lead to Virginia?
It may well have been accidental, I was just pointing out the coincidence.I knew Harold Binney died of an overdose but not that it was suicide
If you mean the coincidence that Virginia Martin's biological father and one of her various stepfathers died in the same year, yes I believe it was just that - an unfortunate coincidence.It may well have been accidental, I was just pointing out the coincidence.
No I was pointing out that two of Elise Martin's husbands (Binney and Davies... albeit the latter was probably a common law marriage) died within little more than a year of marriage and both died of an overdose and in each case Elise Martin was the beneficiary.If you mean the coincidence that Virginia Martin's biological father and one of her various stepfathers died in the same year, yes I believe it was just that - an unfortunate coincidence.
Vera Hanson's is an interesting story, her husband's perhaps more so... both are worthy of more research as are the circumstances that led Mrs Fierer to be reported as still being in contact with her former charge, but she can surely be discounted from the effort to trace the final whereabouts of Virginia Emanuel. On that front I think that the clues will come through her mother. Perhaps her death certificate or her will, or the details, if they exist, of the auction of her goods that took place after her death. There is every possibility that her daughter may have been mentioned as an informant or beneficiary.I am really surprised that several people, including writers Andrew Wilson and Judith Geller, accepted Vera Hanson's claim without checking into it. Wilson even tried to make it sound poignant but it came across as very cloying.
Well, I would go so far as to say that is rather suggestive but not beyond. Looks like Esther Elise Martin was promiscuous and lived a hedonistic lifestyle but that's far from considering that she might have done away with two of her many husbands and paramours. I mean, living such a life might be considered as morally unacceptable by some but is not really a crime. But the possibility that.............well, as I said, suggestive but I would prefer to have more information before thinking on those lines.No I was pointing out that two of Elise Martin's husbands (Binney and Davies... albeit he latter was probably a common law marriage) died within little more than a year of marriage and both died of an overdose and in each case Elise Martin was the beneficiary.
As you have pointed out yourself, The real Virginia Martin was born in 1905 and knew her background and family members very well. She never lived in any institution.Vera Hanson claimed that she had been brought up in institutions in England and never knew her background, the identity of her parents or true name and age (she believed she was born sometime between 1908 and 1911)
Personally, I doubt very much whether Beesley, then pushing seventy, even met Wilkins. But even if he had, Beesley might have admitted to the fact that he did receive a baby on board Lifeboat #13 and passed it to Hilda Slayter. The only problem is that it is now well known that the baby was Alden Caldwell, a 10-month old BOY whose parents were also rescued on Lifeboat #13.She also claimed to have received an anonymous letter in the 1930s insinuating that she had been handed "from A deck to Lifeboat 13" into the arms of a Dulwich College teacher, namely Lawrence Beesley. Vera enlisted the help of a solicitor, L. M. Wilkins to help determine her true identity and armed with the information about Beesley, Wilkins visited the retired schoolmaster who confirmed that he had been handed a baby in the lifeboat before handing the child to Hilda Slayter, a lady with whom Beesley shared a common acquaintance in Ireland
Personally, I doubt if this Julia Mahoney/Murphy even existed; a very common name in Ireland and so a search would be pointless. And I wonder who made that "vague deduction" based on the completely non-matching information?Further research led Wilkins to a woman in County Kerry, Ireland, Julia Mahoney [some articles give her name as Julia Murphy], who stated that she knew that her friend Elizabeth Dowdell was chaperoning a child aboard Titanic; gathering the child's name as Virginia Emanuel from that information it was vaguely deduced that she and Mrs Hanson must be one and the same.
That wording is really interesting to me because in the 1990s, several BTS members that I spoke to insisted that was all that Dowdell said ie no name mentioned. My guess is that Wilkins, Sydney and Vera decided to embellish that information by adding Vera Hanson's name.Interviewed in the 1950s, Elizabeth Dowdell (then Mrs Harry Fierer) stated that her former charge was married and living in London
Given the known backgrounds of Sydney Hanson and L M Wilkins, I think it is the former ie the Hanson claim was a cheap piggyback on the sudden resurgence of interest in the Titanic. All this business about letters from the Department of Health and an anonymous one pushed though Hanson's mailbox and written in red ink has all the elements of a Penny Dreadful.Whilst the identity of Mrs Hanson isn't entirely certain it can be assumed that she was either trying to piggyback on the hype of Titanic mania in the 1950s or that she truly did not know her own identity and was chasing a red herring
Hold on a sec! Are we saying that this "French Socialite Marquise Elisa Della Fellisa" is the former Esther Elise Martin, the mother of Virginia Martin? If so, that would have been some socially upward mobility! Mind you, since Esther Elise went through at least 6 known husbands and several other relationships in-between (and during), I would not be surprised. But as she was born in Cincinnati and lived in New York in her youth, I am not sure where the "flawless British English" came from. I know that Elise lived for a bit in Park Lane, London but that would not given her the accent, but she could have fooled the LA reporter.In 1940 she claimed to be the sister-in-law of Lucien Rosengart, the famous French motor manufacturer. I wasn't sure whether to just consider this exaggeration on her part or if there was actually something in it.
I agree that the "Mlle Virginia Martin" in the car in 1940 more or less confirms we are talking about the same girl who had survived the Titanic disaster 28 years earlier. But this raises several new angles:The pictures show Elise and Virginia in the same Rosengart car. Considering the names and the name check in the 1940 article there can't be much doubt that this is the Titanic survivor.