What of the iceberg

One of the big questions about the collision is how did the Titanic hit a 60ft. plus iceberg on the forward starboard compartments while turning to port and not have the whole side of the ship torn assunder? One theory is that Hichens and Boxhall got it wrong; the ship was turning to starboard to keep the stern clear of the berg. But I can't see how they could have been mistaken. A new theory is that the ship never struck an iceberg, but ran into heavy pack ice containing multi year growlers, which, of course, would be quite sufficient to do her in! A Newfoundlander, Captain Marmaduke Collins has written a new book called "The Sinking of the Titanic: An Ice-Pilot's Perspective." Like most people, I assumed the ship hit an iceberg. After reading his book and speaking to him personally, he makes a strong argument for his position. The haze Fleet and Lee saw two points on the horizon was in fact field ice. They saw a black mass above the forecastle peak, while Rowe took it to be 100-150 feet high at the stern (he could not answer Lord Mersey's question as to why the Titanic was not in contact with the berg if she was hard-a-starboard). Captain Collins spent most of his career navigating ships in ice, and says that what they saw was low lying pack ice visibly elevated and exagerated in size by the well known phenomenon of atmospheric distortion caused by a strong temperture inversion; the conditions the Titanic was in that night were perfect for this to happen. The greater the amount of light thrown onto the ice, the larger the "mirage" would appear to be; hence its being 60ft high to the lookouts and over 100ft high to the quartermaster. He particularly points to Boxhall, who at the American Inquiry said that he thought he saw a very, very low lying black mass behind the ship after the collision. This comes from a man who was right open to the position that the iceberg struck, but never saw it while it was right beside him! Collin's says that what Boxhall saw was the pack ice that Fleet and Lee had seen as haze, and the same stuff the Mesaba had sent a warning about earlier that evening. His argument is well thought out. He is a master mariner who spent his lfe on vessels moving through ice, not on those trying to avoid it. It is an interesting new perspective on the Titanic disaster and helps explain how a ship of that size moving 37 feet a second could hit a large iceberg while leaving the passengers and crew with the impression of a minor bump and doing so little structural damage to the starboard side.
Allan
 
Alan,

May I direct you to the thread containing this theory, it is in this section somewhere I believe...not sure where though....but it has been discussed in the not too distant past about that very possibility, a flaw in the scheme, which isn't a bad one, is that alot of people saw an iceberg graze the ship.

Hope ya find the thread, it's here.

Regards,
Bill
 
What about the guys in the smoking room that saw the iceberg float by? They described it as a sailboat as I recall and white. Interesting theory though!

IndyFan
 
I've ordered a copy of Captain Collins book streight from the publisher myself. I don't know if I'll agree with some of his theories, but I'm willing to give him a hearing. If nothing else, his experience in this sort of thing is something that is rarely heard from as much as it ought to be.

From what I've gathered, navigating in ice conditions, especially at night, can be extremely deceptive. Like anything else out on the ocean, what you think you see is not always what you really get. Captain Lord on the Californian was lucky that he recognized the haze for what it was. Were it otherwise, likely as not, two ships would be sitting on the bottom of that stretch of the Atlantic. Titanic was not as fortunate and paid the price!

For anyone interested in getting a copy of this book, one may go to http://www.breakwate r.nf.net/

Like anything else, you'll have to keep your own counsel and what you agree with based on the evidence, but I expect Captain Collins experience and expertise alone will make the book worth every penny!

Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
 
I am with Mike. I would think like a Coast Guard ship crew with 20 years of experience that oversees and lives in the ice in the North Atlantic would have more understanding and maybe the quirks of the haze and ice floes and things like that than maybe a person with twice as much experience navigating the South Pacific, that the average mariner lives his life out of the ice.

They both great mariners, just different take on things based on their life experiences.

I look forward to reading it. But I must wait, have others in the queue.

Maureen.
 
Thanks to all of you for not calling out the emergengy workers to have me carted off to the looney bin. My initial reaction was how does Captain Collins explain awway the passengers who said they saw the iceberg. His reply was that not many people did see the berg; the most credible witnesses were Lee, Fleet, and Rowe. Oliver said he was checking compass readings located 150ft from the bridge when the Titanic hit the ice, but also says he overheard Murdoch and Captain Smith; that would have been one heck of a jog to get back to the bridge that fast! Consequently, Collins does not think his testimony was credible and perhaps that is why he didn't get called to the British Inquiry. Does anyone know another reason for his ommission from Lord Mersey's witness list?
As to the ice on the forecastle; Collins accepts Boxhall's and Pitman's account that there was not much ice on the deck. He told me that the Titanic's mass pressing down on the pack ice could easily flick the loose top layers up to the deck. He has seen ice being tossed high by the icebreaker John A. MacDonald.
I asked him only yesterday about passengers seeing the ice go by their portholes and he replyed that they were subject to the same phenomenon and could certainly have seen the "shadow" (my word) of the ice. I think that for his theory to work, one has to concede that there were not many credible witnesses to the event. Even Moody told Boxhall that he didn't see an iceberg. What puzzles me is why Boxhall didn't see it when it should have been right next to him.
Allan
 
"Captain Lord on the Californian was lucky that he recognized the haze for what it was."

Mike: Unfortunately, Lord doesn't seem to have noticed any "haze" until about 1959. ;^)
In 1912, all his evidence indicated that there was *no* haze, and he merely saw the ice field (but perhaps not the loose ice) in time.

7193. You have said that there was no haze that night? - Yes.

Disregarding Reggie Lee's uniquely strong contradictions, I'd say he was right.

Anyway, I'm awaiting the arrival of Captain Collins' book too. I have a few doubts of my own about *some* of his premises, but I'm still looking forward to reading his analysis.

As you said, his experience alone ...
 
Allan: I've corresponded with the good captain myself, and surely wouldn't want to knock his book before I've seen it. But I'm also not too sure how much emphasis I'd place on Boxhall's description (partly owning to some other peculiarities that have come up here), since he seems, at best, to have only *thought* he saw it, and only after it was astern.

This part particularly slays me -- why would a man who was right there (and presumably in an ideal position to see the collision) proceed right onto the bridge without even looking? Boxhall in fact seemed fairly clueless at first, and only did go looking when the Captain and the others finally did:

[US 227-8]:
Senator SMITH. Where were you when the collision took place?
Mr. BOXHALL. I was just approaching the bridge.
Senator SMITH. On the port or the starboard side?
Mr. BOXHALL. Starboard side.
Senator SMITH. Did the collision occur on the port or the starboard side?
Mr. BOXHALL. On the starboard side, sir.
Senator SMITH. And you were on deck at that time?
Mr. BOXHALL. On the deck, sir.
Senator SMITH. Approaching the bridge?
Mr. BOXHALL. Just approaching the bridge.
Senator SMITH. Could you see what had occurred?
Mr. BOXHALL. No, sir; I could not see what had occurred.
Senator SMITH. Did you know what had occurred?
Mr. BOXHALL. No, not at all. I heard the sixth officer say what it was.
Senator SMITH. What did he say that it was?
Mr. BOXHALL. He said we had struck an iceberg.
...
Mr. BOXHALL. At the time of the impact I was just coming along the deck and almost abreast of the captain's quarters, and I heard the report of three bells.
...
Senator SMITH. Did you see this iceberg at that time?
Mr. BOXHALL. Not at that time.

[US 230]:
Mr. BOXHALL. We all walked out to the corner of the bridge then to look at the iceberg.
Senator SMITH. The captain?
Mr. BOXHALL. The captain, first officer, and myself.
Senator SMITH. Did you see it?
Mr. BOXHALL. I was not very sure of seeing it. It seemed to me to be just a small black mass not rising very high out of the water, just a little on the starboard quarter,

Huh?? (Still, I'll reserve judgment.)
 
One thing I forgot is at least one crewmember described the berg as nearly identical to the Rock of Gilbraltor and in fact one was photographed in the vicinity fitting this description and it was approximately 60 feet as recounted in the Hearings. Regardless, this is pretty interesting stuff. My personal opinion is "the iceberg" was originally off to the port side and Murdoch went hard-a-starboard when he saw the approaching ice field. That probably took him right into the path of "the iceberg." Then, he tried to get as close as possible without hitting it before making a hard-a-port. He probably did that successfully except he hit the underwater shelf as it was turning to starboard. I saw this theory here before and it makes the most sense to me anyway. The most puzzling thing to me is why didn't they realize at the Hearings that the engines couldn't have been reversed? It's pretty obvious all the passengers and crew would have felt that, right? Sorry, I am going off on tangents now =-)

IndyFan
 
Hello,
While this theory of "no iceberg" is indeed interesting, I must raise a few points. Firstly, I see that no one has yet brought up the issue of the ice warnings Titanic recieved from other vessels earlier that day. Unless I am mistaken, some of these mentioned not only pack ice but also icebergs. Thus we can deduce that Titanic was steaming into an area that was not void of icebergs. And secondly, in the early morning following the sinking, a number of passengers on the Carpathia reported seeing icebergs in the distance while the survivors were being rescued. In fact, photographs were taken of some of these bergs and later touted to be "The berg that sank Titanic". While I am not trying to imply that any one of the sighted bergs in fact sank the ship, I am bringing up this point to confirm icebergs were seen in the general vicinity of the disaster. In fact, in the Titanic Concepts collection we have an original photo of an iceberg from the personal collection of Captain James Adams, then Chief Officer on the cable steamer Minia. As many of you know, the Minia was one of the vessels sent from Halifax to recover Titanic victims. It is believed this photo was taken on the body recovery mission and it is further believed that the Minia's crew must have snapped it thinking that the pictured berg was the one that did in the Titanic. Wether it was in fact "the berg" or not is not the issue in my bringing it up. I brought the picture and the other points up to demonstrate that there were a NUMBER of icebergs in the area. With that many bergs about, why would one favour pack ice as the culprit in the sinking? Especially when people on the Titanic DID see the iceberg and in fact Fleet later DREW IT! Regards, Steve Santini
 
John: Your point is well taken. The conditions at sea where the Titanic was travelling that night would not have allowed for the prescence of haze. So what did Lee and Fleet see? Captain Collins says that it could only have been the heavy field ice that lay in the ship's path. That is how it would have appeared to the lookouts who were not experienced in ice conditions. He quotes Captain Rostron on the subject: "people with experience of ice know what to look for, and can at once distingish that it is a separate object on the water, and it must only be one thing, and that is ice."
Allan
 
Just ordered a copy on Amazon and will be waiting with much anticipation. Not sure if I'll agree with his thinking on "the ice berg" but still looks like it will be interesting, and I'll learn a lot from it. As an added bonus, I got it for $12.99 used and in perfect condition!
 
John: Boxhall's role in this is part of the mystery. As you say, he "thought" he saw a very, very low lying black mass astern of the Titanic. The puzzle is how could he not see a 60ft iceberg right beside him as he walked along the starboard side of the ship towards the bridge?

Steve: Certainly, there were many icebergs in the area. I believe it was seaman Scarett who claims to have seen the berg and drew it looking similar to the entrance to Gibralter. However, Scarett said that when the collision occured, he went down the ladder to tell one of his shipmates and then they went out on deck and, looking over the starboard side, saw the iceberg. The Titanic was moving 37ft per second. By the time Scarett went down and up the ladder and went to the ship's side, the iceberg would have been long gone from visual range. Perhaps he saw an iceberg, but it wouldn't have been the one the Titanic hit.
As to why Collins believes the pack ice theory, it is in large measure based on the view that very few people actually witnessed the accident, and the damage to the ship was so slight. The hydrodynamics of a ship the Titanic's size striking a large iceberg, while turning to port should have torn along the whole starboard side causing tremendous damage and flinging everone and everything all about. The pack ice would have broken apart on impact and left a clear channel for the ship's stern to pass through. Edward Wilding, the naval architect from Harland and Wolff told the British inquiry that "from a calculation...a very light contact was made...the injury was evidently a very slight one." Studies of the wreck indicate that he was right.
Allan
 
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