The Iceberg

[Paul Lee]

Dieter,
Why shouldn't I speak my mind? I am sick of hearing "read my book". Why should I? Others seek to excuse Collins by saying that he has 40 years of experience in ice navigation. So what? If he comes up with bogus theories and dismisses evidence that doesn't fit his ideas, because he knows best, then someone should speak out.

 

[Dieter Klimow]

Paul,
I did not want to rebuke you personally, I just regret that things have evolved from discussion to throwing dirt at each other (see the ->'Grounding' thread).

The book's title contains "An Ice Pilot's Perspective", which acknowledges that it addresses things as seen from a personal, well, perspective.

When my mother is hungry, she wants me to eat something.

 

[Samuel Halpern]

quote:

If he comes up with bogus theories and dismisses evidence that doesn't fit his ideas, because he knows best, then someone should speak out.

But what makes a theory bogus? Who is to judge? Dismissing evidence is one thing, providing a different explanation or interpretation for what one saw is very different. If I don't think someone's theory is valid I will state my reasons and point to the shortfalls as I see it and let others decided what they then want to believe.

Allan, I fully agree with what you said above.​

 

[John Knight]

"Dieter,
Why shouldn't I speak my mind? I am sick of hearing "read my book". Why should I? Others seek to excuse Collins by saying that he has 40 years of experience in ice navigation. So what? If he comes up with bogus theories and dismisses evidence that doesn't fit his ideas, because he knows best, then someone should speak out."

I couldn't agree with you more Paul. If everyone else wishes to buy the book, then good for them. But I will not pay good money for it as I am deeply unimpressed with the arguments put forward by its author. If the questions repeatedly asked of this person had been answered in total and fully, then I might have considered buying the book. But until then, I would feel ripped off, regardless of the 'knowledge' about ice navigation etc, etc that it is meant to contain. If the author wishes to pen a new book purely on the subject of ice navigation then, again, I might consider buying that, otherwise, not a chance.

 

[Michael H. Standart]

>>Still trying to sell more books, Captain? Why not be courteous and just TELL us.<<

Mod's Hat on: Once more from the top: Do away with the personal attacks, even those on the borderline. I don't care much who they come from.

Mod's Hat Off. Personal Perspective: The point that red paint (Or any other kind for that matter) doesn't adhere well to ice is a good one and falls squarely into the realm of "observed fact." When referring to the stain being organic in nature, think about sea life trying to have each other for lunch. If a herd of seals had sought refuge on this particular berg at some point in time, the sharks which pray on them wouldn't be far away.

While I don't agree with Captain Collins conclusions for reasons that have already been beaten to death, that doesn't mean that he doesn't have things to say that aren't worth listening to. Quite the contrary. Captain Collins accurately describes the problems of ice navigation which are part and parcel of why Titanic ended up plummeting to the bottom in a shower of scrap metal. While his conclusions are controversial, you ignore his insights at your peril.

 

[Samuel Halpern]

Sharks can be of the human variety too. Our good captain points out on the referenced page in his book that in the month before the disaster, hundreds of thousands of seals were harvested off the east coast of Newfoundland. When that berg transited those waters it may have picked up some of the aftermath of that slaughter.

 

[Dave Gittins]

Instead of arguing over whether paint sticks to ice and dragging in seal hunting, let's look at the credentials of the Prinz Adalbert photo. It's usually claimed to have been taken on 15 April in the vicinity of the sinking. However, I have news on that.

The captain of Prinz Adalbert provided a statement to his owners, who passed in on to the Board of Trade. It's dated 29 June 1912.

It shows that Prinz Adalbert was not on the scene of the sinking on 15 April. Her captain reported that he was warned of ice by Caronia on 14 April. He proceeded on his course of 259 True until he met his first iceberg at 3-30am on 16 April, in 42.03N, 48.57W. He proceeded very slowly and by 8-00am he could see a huge icefield extending north and south. He steered various courses to clear it and eventually got clear in 41.37N, 50.14W.

By 16 April, the fatal berg was far from the scene of the wreck. To find it by chance is stretching credibility more than a little.

The report makes no mention of the berg in the photo. It is impossible to believe that those on Prinz Adalbert were unaware of the sinking, as is sometimes claimed. On the morning of 15 April, Gilbert Balfour, on Baltic, complained that her operator was constantly interrupting traffic relating to Titanic.

The story has the appearance of a sailor's yarn. The dark line along the berg's base is obviously the shadow of a little overhang, caused by water lapping on the berg. The diagonal dark line has every appearance of a dark layer of ice. These are sometimes seen, having been created by some event during the many years in which the ice was laid down.

There are at least eight photos that claim to show the berg that dunnit. Some have far better credentials, having been taken near the wreck site on 15 April. A notable example was taken by an officer of Birma. None would be convicted in a court.