Who Occupied Cabins B-47 and B-43?

[Melinda R]

I am trying to find out if Cabins B-47 and B-43 in First Class were occupied. I cannot seem to find a reference to those cabins except they did exist on the B-Deck plans.
Thanks for any help.
Melinda

 

[Thomas Krom]

I am trying to find out if Cabins B-47 and B-43 in First Class were occupied. I cannot seem to find a reference to those cabins except they did exist on the B-Deck plans.
Thanks for any help.
Melinda

Helen Bishop said at the inquiries she was in B-47, but this was likely a mistake as they were in B-49 on the Case list. There's no evidence beyond that that neither staterooms were occupied.

 

[Arun Vajpey]

Helen Bishop said at the inquiries she was in B-47, but this was likely a mistake as they were in B-49 on the Cave list. There's no evidence beyond that that neither staterooms were occupied.

Thanks for that Thomas. Yes, the Cave List allocated B-49 to the Bishops, and and that error about her cabin number might not have been the only one that Helen Bishop made. After reading your post above, I remembered something else and checked my notes about my research into the fate of Titanic victim Ann Isham, one of the only 4 adult women from 1st Class who died in the disaster. I have an entry (can't find the source at the moment!) which says that Helen Bishop told a reporter that a woman occupying a cabin 'near' her own refused to get out of bed despite the stewards' persuasion, went back to sleep and sank with the ship. Obviously, that description did not apply to the fates Ida Straus, Bess Allison or Edith Evans and so Mrs Bishop must have been referring to Ann Isham, who some speculate ignored Charles Cullen's warning and never got out of her cabin. I confess that I don't accept that view and believe that Mrs Isham emerged rather late from her cabin, got to the boat deck but somehow was not able to find a place in a lifeboat. I also feel that there is a strong possibility that she was in the group of "4 or 5 women struggling in the water nearby" whom Steward Edward Brown saw just as Collapsible A broke adrift.

Getting back to Helen Bishop, the problem with her statement is that her husband Dickinson and she occupied B-49, a deck above Ann Isham's C-49 and so not exactly 'near' each other. Having said that, BB's deck plans show that while B-49 was not directly above C-49, both cabins were quite near the forward grand staircase and the elevator banks. But since Cullen did not service B-49, the only way Helen Bishop could have found out about Ann Isham not responding immediately to the order to come up to the boat deck would have been through fellow First Class survivor Pierre Marechal, who was in Lifeboat #7 with her. Marechal occupied C-47, the cabin next to Ann Isham (Gracie had C-51) and might have found out about her from Cullen or some other way.

 

[George Jacub]

Thanks for that Thomas. Yes, the Cave List allocated B-49 to the Bishops, and and that error about her cabin number might not have been the only one that Helen Bishop made. After reading your post above, I remembered something else and checked my notes about my research into the fate of Titanic victim Ann Isham, one of the only 4 adult women from 1st Class who died in the disaster. I have an entry (can't find the source at the moment!) which says that Helen Bishop told a reporter that a woman occupying a cabin 'near' her own refused to get out of bed despite the stewards' persuasion, went back to sleep and sank with the ship. Obviously, that description did not apply to the fates Ida Straus, Bess Allison or Edith Evans and so Mrs Bishop must have been referring to Ann Isham, who some speculate ignored Charles Cullen's warning and never got out of her cabin. I confess that I don't accept that view and believe that Mrs Isham emerged rather late from her cabin, got to the boat deck but somehow was not able to find a place in a lifeboat. I also feel that there is a strong possibility that she was in the group of "4 or 5 women struggling in the water nearby" whom Steward Edward Brown saw just as Collapsible A broke adrift.

The Helen Bishop quote appeared in the Dowagiac Daily News, April 20 1912

"The girl who occupied a stateroom across from us refused to get up and the stewards pulled her out of bed, she got back in and sank with the ship."

The entire newspaper article is here: Mr. and Mrs. Bishop Give First Authentic Interview Concerning Titantic [sic] Disaster

The speculation that this referred to Ann Isham is here:

What happened to Lizzy?

Although she died that famous night, almost no one recalled seeing Lizzy Isham. What happened to her?

www.encyclopedia-titanica.org

"On the rescue ship Carpathia, an aspiring young journalist named May Birkhead conducted a series of interviews with Titanic survivors, from well-known people like the Duff Gordons to an unidentified first class steward.
In her story, featured in the New York Herald of April 19, 1912, Birkhead wrote:
A steward told me when he went to one of the first cabin passengers – a woman – and told her to dress and put on a life preserver, she merely laughed. ‘If that little bump is all that has happened, I’ll stay right here,’ she said. ‘Madam,’ replied the steward, ‘my orders are from the captain to tell you to dress and put on a life preserver.’ ‘My orders to myself are to get back into bed and go to sleep again,’ said the woman. And she did. She paid for that with her life.
Birkhead didn’t quote the steward as claiming the woman died, but the writer’s words indicate she was informed by him that the passenger did not survive. While there’s no proof of the identity of the steward or the passenger, it would appear the lady in question was traveling alone. That would eliminate Ida Straus and Bess Allison, the only two married ladies in first class who lost their lives in the sinking. It would also appear to exclude the other single female fatality in first class, Edith Evans, who is thought to have joined her traveling companions early in the emergency. That leaves Lizzy Isham. Could the steward have been either Cullen or Faulkner who were known to have attended staterooms in Lizzy’s section of C Deck?"

 

[Arun Vajpey]

Thank you George. Have a beer on me

 

[Arun Vajpey]

"The girl who occupied a stateroom across from us refused to get up and the stewards pulled her out of bed, she got back in and sank with the ship."

An interesting statement. The Bishops were in B-49; the cabin next to theirs was B-47 while across the short side corridor were B-45 and B-43. I am not sure who was in those cabins or even if they were occupied, but looking at the other female First Class victims, it could not have been Edith Evans (A-29), Ida Straus (C-55), Bess & Loraine Allison (C-22) or Ann Isham (C-49). None of them were even on the same deck.

But the manner in which some sources believe that Mrs Isham died fits in with Helen Bishop's statement and so it is possible that the newspaper reporter misquoted her when they used the words "across from us".

 

[Thomas Krom]

I’m sorry to pop anyone’s bubble but I believe that the girl in question refers to a lady who survived the sinking. Hedwig Margaritha Frölicher (1889-1972), who was in B-39 (which was located near B-49), was suffering from mal de mer during the maiden voyage and was in a different lifeboat too. Possibly due to the return voyage on the Carpathia being quite harsh weatherwise it’s possible that she stayed in a cabin.

 

[Arun Vajpey]

I’m sorry to pop anyone’s bubble but I believe that the girl in question refers to a lady who survived the sinking. Hedwig Margaritha Frölicher (1889-1972), who was in B-39 (which was located near B-49)

You could be right Thomas, can you be certain? That interview was on 20th April, 2 days after the Carpathia docked in New York and would Helen Bishop have made a statement that someone died in the disaster without being reasonably certain? Furthermore, if the two women had met before, it seems unlikely that one assumed the other was dead for 4 days. With not a lot to do on the overcrowded rescue ship, Mrs Bishop might have checked before making such a major assumption IMO.

Also, Miss Frolicher and her parents were rescued on Lifeboat #5, which was lowered only 5 to 7 minutes after Lifeboat #7. The boat deck was not particularly crowded at the time and so there is a high chance that Helen Bishop saw the Frolicher family on the deck before boarding their respective lifeboats. Mrs Bishop specifically said that the "girl" refused to get up and went back to sleep.

There is the possibility that Helen Bishop spoke about "the girl in the cabin across the way" from hers who was unwell (Hedwig Frolicher) and then about Mrs Isham whom she assumed went back to sleep. The overenthusiastic reporter might have got the details mixed-up later or simply did not bother to cross-check.

 

[Thomas Krom]

With not a lot to do on the overcrowded rescue ship, Mrs Bishop might have checked before making such a major assumption IMO.

Considering how seasick Miss Frölicher was during the maiden voyage of the Titanic (which was quite stable) imagine how she reacted on the Carpathia in stormy weather.

Also, Miss Frolicher and her parents were rescued on Lifeboat #5, which was lowered only 5 to 7 minutes after Lifeboat #7. The boat deck was not particularly crowded at the time and so there is a high chance that Helen Bishop saw the Frolicher family on the deck before boarding their respective lifeboats.

Keep in mind it was quite dark however, and if I remember correctly (correct me if I'm wrong) they came onto the deck quite late too.

Mrs Bishop specifically said that the "girl" refused to get up and went back to sleep.

Which Hedwig said she would do so too before she was alerted that it was more serious, I'll supply some accounts when I'm back home. The term girl would be strange too to use for a lady double her age like Miss Isham.

 

[Arun Vajpey]

The term girl would be strange too to use for a lady double her age like Miss Isham.

True, but it was a newspaper account. Reporters of those days were known to be rather lackadaisical with regard to what they felt were trivial details and none of them had handled a tragedy on the scale of the Titanic before.

 

[Arun Vajpey]

I’m sorry to pop anyone’s bubble but I believe that the girl in question refers to a lady who survived the sinking. Hedwig Margaritha Frölicher (1889-1972), who was in B-39 (which was located near B-49), was suffering from mal de mer during the maiden voyage and was in a different lifeboat too. Possibly due to the return voyage on the Carpathia being quite harsh weatherwise it’s possible that she stayed in a cabin.

Sorry Thomas, but more I think about this possibility that you have suggested, less likely it appears to me. I do not believe that Helen Bishop would have told a newspaper reporter effectively that a girl across the way from her cabin (Hedwig Frolicher) had died in the sinking simply because she did not see that "girl" on board the Carpathia. The ship was overcrowded with Titanic survivors and mobility would have been difficult.

There are two main reasons I believe that you are wrong, one of which I have mentioned already but will do so again here for analysis. Remember, for your supposition to be correct Mrs Bishop must have known Hedwig Frolciher at least by sight.

• As I said before, Helen Bishop was rescued on Lifeboat #7 launched just after 12:40am and the Frolicher family, including hedwig, on Lifeboat #5 lowered about 5 minutes later. The boat deck was not particularly crowded at the time and so there is a good chance that Helen Bishop saw Hedwig Frolicher around that timeframe.
• Even if Hedwig Frolicher had remained within her room for over 3 days while on board the Carpathia (which I seriously doubt), her parents would not have done so. Again, that greatly increases the chance that they saw Helen Bishop sometime during those 3 days. At that time, the latter would surely have asked Mr & Mrs Frolicher about their daughter.

What could have happened is that Helen Bishop told the reporter about the "girl across her cabin" who had been sick and hardly ever left her room (Hedwig Frolicher) AND also about a woman who ignored the stewards instructions after the accident, went back to sleep and (presumed) went down with the ship (Ann Isham). The reporter must have accidentally got the two statements mixed and wrongly assumed that Mrs Bishop had been referring to the same person.

 

[Thomas Krom]

I do not believe that Helen Bishop would have told a newspaper reporter effectively that a girl across the way from her cabin (Hedwig Frolicher) had died in the sinking simply because she did not see that "girl" on board the Carpathia. The ship was overcrowded with Titanic survivors and mobility would have been difficult..

As mentioned before she suffered from seasickness during the maiden voyage of the Titanic, which overall was quite stable. Imagine how she reacted on the Carpathia that entered a storm on the 16th of April. Despite how overfilled the Carpathia was, isn't it possible that Hedwig got a stateroom or remained in the women's hospital on the Carpathia?

And the Frolicher family, including hedwig, on Lifeboat #5 lowered about 5 minutes later. The boat deck was not particularly crowded at the time and so there is a good chance that Helen Bishop saw Hedwig Frolicher around that timeframe

Based on the account Hedwig wrote on Carpathia on the 18th it appears she was put into a lifeboat as soon as she reached the upper deck:

On Sunday I was so miserable that I said to Papa, ‘If only the (darn ship would sink!’ Papa laughed at me and went to play skat with Mr Simonius and Dr Staehelin from Basel till eleven that night. Suddenly at four minutes to 12, I woke up and for a moment even forgot my seasickness. Without thinking, I dressed warmly and ran with Papa to the upper deck to try and find out what the jolt was all about.

On deck we met up with barely 10 people, amongst them by coincidence both our Basel friends, who made fun of me, saying that it seemed to take an iceberg to bring me back on deck. We all looked down on the water rather sheepishly, and then decided to go back to bed as there was no one around that showed any signs of fear. Then we met a gentlemen below who was putting on his lifevest, but I was feeling so seasick, that although the engines had stopped, I lay down again and just left the cabin door open. I relaxed somewhat thinking back on a conversation I had with our steward the day before, I had asked him if the lifevests, lying on top of my closet, were good for anything. He had told me the Titanic could never sink, that even the greatest leak would do no harm because of the watertight walls that would let down in case of an emergency.

Within half a minute Papa was back in the doorway and said that the steward was helping Mama into a lifevest. Papa helped me buckle up he contraption, and because of the extreme cold, I put my evening coat on over it, and then the three of us went back up to the upper deck, where to our amazement we saw about 30 people standing around a lifeboat. ‘Oh dear me, this is it!’ that’s all I thought. I saw two men lift Mama into it, and immediately it was my turn to be shoved inside and I hoped Papa would follow. Then I heard the cursed ‘Ladies first’, and I was so terrified that Papa would not get a seat, that I screamed at the top of my lunge, ‘Come, otherwise I’m getting back out!’ although of course I most certainly could not have gotten out again. Mama was as upset as I was, as were all the other women who were sitting in the lifeboat with us. Then the sailors let a few men in, but Papa, instead of coming, kept on call ‘Goodbye.’ He Still wanted to wait. Thank God there were no more women there, and so Papa came too. Then we were told to hold very still, and now we were lowered rather quickly the 30 metres from the upper deck. Everything was handled with the utmost order and calm by the crew, and we the passengers also barely spoke a word.

Even if Hedwig Frolicher had remained within her room for over 3 days while on board the Carpathia (which I seriously doubt), her parents would not have done so. Again, that greatly increases the chance that they saw Helen Bishop sometime during those 3 days. At that time, the latter would surely have asked Mr & Mrs Frolicher about their daughter..

Once again, see my point above. But once again, this could all be a journalist work to sensationalize the truth á la Isaac Russel.