Helen Bishop said at the inquiries she was in B-47, but this was likely a mistake as they were in B-49 on the Case list. There's no evidence beyond that that neither staterooms were occupied.I am trying to find out if Cabins B-47 and B-43 in First Class were occupied. I cannot seem to find a reference to those cabins except they did exist on the B-Deck plans.
Thanks for any help.
Melinda
Thanks for that Thomas. Yes, the Cave List allocated B-49 to the Bishops, and and that error about her cabin number might not have been the only one that Helen Bishop made. After reading your post above, I remembered something else and checked my notes about my research into the fate of Titanic victim Ann Isham, one of the only 4 adult women from 1st Class who died in the disaster. I have an entry (can't find the source at the moment!) which says that Helen Bishop told a reporter that a woman occupying a cabin 'near' her own refused to get out of bed despite the stewards' persuasion, went back to sleep and sank with the ship. Obviously, that description did not apply to the fates Ida Straus, Bess Allison or Edith Evans and so Mrs Bishop must have been referring to Ann Isham, who some speculate ignored Charles Cullen's warning and never got out of her cabin. I confess that I don't accept that view and believe that Mrs Isham emerged rather late from her cabin, got to the boat deck but somehow was not able to find a place in a lifeboat. I also feel that there is a strong possibility that she was in the group of "4 or 5 women struggling in the water nearby" whom Steward Edward Brown saw just as Collapsible A broke adrift.Helen Bishop said at the inquiries she was in B-47, but this was likely a mistake as they were in B-49 on the Cave list. There's no evidence beyond that that neither staterooms were occupied.
The Helen Bishop quote appeared in the Dowagiac Daily News, April 20 1912Thanks for that Thomas. Yes, the Cave List allocated B-49 to the Bishops, and and that error about her cabin number might not have been the only one that Helen Bishop made. After reading your post above, I remembered something else and checked my notes about my research into the fate of Titanic victim Ann Isham, one of the only 4 adult women from 1st Class who died in the disaster. I have an entry (can't find the source at the moment!) which says that Helen Bishop told a reporter that a woman occupying a cabin 'near' her own refused to get out of bed despite the stewards' persuasion, went back to sleep and sank with the ship. Obviously, that description did not apply to the fates Ida Straus, Bess Allison or Edith Evans and so Mrs Bishop must have been referring to Ann Isham, who some speculate ignored Charles Cullen's warning and never got out of her cabin. I confess that I don't accept that view and believe that Mrs Isham emerged rather late from her cabin, got to the boat deck but somehow was not able to find a place in a lifeboat. I also feel that there is a strong possibility that she was in the group of "4 or 5 women struggling in the water nearby" whom Steward Edward Brown saw just as Collapsible A broke adrift.
An interesting statement. The Bishops were in B-49; the cabin next to theirs was B-47 while across the short side corridor were B-45 and B-43. I am not sure who was in those cabins or even if they were occupied, but looking at the other female First Class victims, it could not have been Edith Evans (A-29), Ida Straus (C-55), Bess & Loraine Allison (C-22) or Ann Isham (C-49). None of them were even on the same deck."The girl who occupied a stateroom across from us refused to get up and the stewards pulled her out of bed, she got back in and sank with the ship."
You could be right Thomas, can you be certain? That interview was on 20th April, 2 days after the Carpathia docked in New York and would Helen Bishop have made a statement that someone died in the disaster without being reasonably certain? Furthermore, if the two women had met before, it seems unlikely that one assumed the other was dead for 4 days. With not a lot to do on the overcrowded rescue ship, Mrs Bishop might have checked before making such a major assumption IMO.I’m sorry to pop anyone’s bubble but I believe that the girl in question refers to a lady who survived the sinking. Hedwig Margaritha Frölicher (1889-1972), who was in B-39 (which was located near B-49)
Considering how seasick Miss Frölicher was during the maiden voyage of the Titanic (which was quite stable) imagine how she reacted on the Carpathia in stormy weather.With not a lot to do on the overcrowded rescue ship, Mrs Bishop might have checked before making such a major assumption IMO.
Keep in mind it was quite dark however, and if I remember correctly (correct me if I'm wrong) they came onto the deck quite late too.Also, Miss Frolicher and her parents were rescued on Lifeboat #5, which was lowered only 5 to 7 minutes after Lifeboat #7. The boat deck was not particularly crowded at the time and so there is a high chance that Helen Bishop saw the Frolicher family on the deck before boarding their respective lifeboats.
Which Hedwig said she would do so too before she was alerted that it was more serious, I'll supply some accounts when I'm back home. The term girl would be strange too to use for a lady double her age like Miss Isham.Mrs Bishop specifically said that the "girl" refused to get up and went back to sleep.
True, but it was a newspaper account. Reporters of those days were known to be rather lackadaisical with regard to what they felt were trivial details and none of them had handled a tragedy on the scale of the Titanic before.The term girl would be strange too to use for a lady double her age like Miss Isham.
Sorry Thomas, but more I think about this possibility that you have suggested, less likely it appears to me. I do not believe that Helen Bishop would have told a newspaper reporter effectively that a girl across the way from her cabin (Hedwig Frolicher) had died in the sinking simply because she did not see that "girl" on board the Carpathia. The ship was overcrowded with Titanic survivors and mobility would have been difficult.I’m sorry to pop anyone’s bubble but I believe that the girl in question refers to a lady who survived the sinking. Hedwig Margaritha Frölicher (1889-1972), who was in B-39 (which was located near B-49), was suffering from mal de mer during the maiden voyage and was in a different lifeboat too. Possibly due to the return voyage on the Carpathia being quite harsh weatherwise it’s possible that she stayed in a cabin.
As mentioned before she suffered from seasickness during the maiden voyage of the Titanic, which overall was quite stable. Imagine how she reacted on the Carpathia that entered a storm on the 16th of April. Despite how overfilled the Carpathia was, isn't it possible that Hedwig got a stateroom or remained in the women's hospital on the Carpathia?I do not believe that Helen Bishop would have told a newspaper reporter effectively that a girl across the way from her cabin (Hedwig Frolicher) had died in the sinking simply because she did not see that "girl" on board the Carpathia. The ship was overcrowded with Titanic survivors and mobility would have been difficult..
Based on the account Hedwig wrote on Carpathia on the 18th it appears she was put into a lifeboat as soon as she reached the upper deck:And the Frolicher family, including hedwig, on Lifeboat #5 lowered about 5 minutes later. The boat deck was not particularly crowded at the time and so there is a good chance that Helen Bishop saw Hedwig Frolicher around that timeframe
On Sunday I was so miserable that I said to Papa, ‘If only the (darn ship would sink!’ Papa laughed at me and went to play skat with Mr Simonius and Dr Staehelin from Basel till eleven that night. Suddenly at four minutes to 12, I woke up and for a moment even forgot my seasickness. Without thinking, I dressed warmly and ran with Papa to the upper deck to try and find out what the jolt was all about.
On deck we met up with barely 10 people, amongst them by coincidence both our Basel friends, who made fun of me, saying that it seemed to take an iceberg to bring me back on deck. We all looked down on the water rather sheepishly, and then decided to go back to bed as there was no one around that showed any signs of fear. Then we met a gentlemen below who was putting on his lifevest, but I was feeling so seasick, that although the engines had stopped, I lay down again and just left the cabin door open. I relaxed somewhat thinking back on a conversation I had with our steward the day before, I had asked him if the lifevests, lying on top of my closet, were good for anything. He had told me the Titanic could never sink, that even the greatest leak would do no harm because of the watertight walls that would let down in case of an emergency.
Within half a minute Papa was back in the doorway and said that the steward was helping Mama into a lifevest. Papa helped me buckle up he contraption, and because of the extreme cold, I put my evening coat on over it, and then the three of us went back up to the upper deck, where to our amazement we saw about 30 people standing around a lifeboat. ‘Oh dear me, this is it!’ that’s all I thought. I saw two men lift Mama into it, and immediately it was my turn to be shoved inside and I hoped Papa would follow. Then I heard the cursed ‘Ladies first’, and I was so terrified that Papa would not get a seat, that I screamed at the top of my lunge, ‘Come, otherwise I’m getting back out!’ although of course I most certainly could not have gotten out again. Mama was as upset as I was, as were all the other women who were sitting in the lifeboat with us. Then the sailors let a few men in, but Papa, instead of coming, kept on call ‘Goodbye.’ He Still wanted to wait. Thank God there were no more women there, and so Papa came too. Then we were told to hold very still, and now we were lowered rather quickly the 30 metres from the upper deck. Everything was handled with the utmost order and calm by the crew, and we the passengers also barely spoke a word.
Once again, see my point above. But once again, this could all be a journalist work to sensationalize the truth á la Isaac Russel.Even if Hedwig Frolicher had remained within her room for over 3 days while on board the Carpathia (which I seriously doubt), her parents would not have done so. Again, that greatly increases the chance that they saw Helen Bishop sometime during those 3 days. At that time, the latter would surely have asked Mr & Mrs Frolicher about their daughter..
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