Why were Asplunds separated?

[Arthur Merchant]

One of the aspects of the Titanic I found the most haunting, was the fate of all the large families w/ young children traveling Third Class. I believe there were at least ten of them (by large families, I mean four or more siblings traveling w/ one or both parents). From what I can see, literally the only survivors from this category were three members of the Asplund family, mother Selma, youngest of four sons Felix and daughter Lillian (who is one of the last living survivors).

Does anyone have accounts of how they were separated from the father and the other sons which included Lillian's twin brother who like her was only five years old! The one account I've read has Lifeboat 4 being lowered when Mrs. Asplund and Felix had barely taken their seat, w/ Lillian tossed in as the boat was lowered. Or was there an over-zealous officer who considered the other boys as Men?

Thank you,
Arthur

 

[Michael Findlay]

Dear Arthur,

In 1989, I had a series of telephone conversations with Lillian Asplund at her home in Massachusetts. While she does not wish to partake in the publicity built up around the disaster, she kindly answered my questions and spoke about the disaster. Other researchers who have contacted her described the same thing - that Lillian will speak about the sinking over the phone but prefers not to attend public events or to grant interviews to newspaper, radio and television.

The sinking has not left Lillian's memory and she still speaks of the disaster with emotion. She remembered that the family got to the deck, and were standing near a lifeboat. She remembered that her mother got in holding her brother Felix (and had to climb through a window). There seemed to be commotion and then the boat started to lower before the rest of the children could be placed into it. Mrs. Asplund screamed to her husband and he quickly picked up Lillian and dropped her into the boat. Apparently, the boat lowered so fast that the rest of the children couldn't be dropped in. Mr. Asplund was last seen leading the other boys away from the rail - presumably to find another boat. We think the boat Mrs. Asplund entered with her two children was either boat #15 or #4.

Hope this helps.

Michael Findlay

 

[Peter]

Dear Arthur, I have read several of Mrs Asplund's interviews in her native language, i e Swedish, and she says - in all of the interivews - that the boat she was in (the last to leave that side of the ship), was about to be lowered away when they stood near it. The reason for her husband and three sons to be left was that there simply was no more time, and also that the boat was absolutely packed. There was a large crowd of people surrounding the boat. There was no order for men to stand back or anything like that, there simply wasn't time for the rest of the family to embark. Her description matches boat 15 perfectly. I have seen the Asplunds placed in boat 4, but nothing in Mrs Asplund's story at all hints at that.

Peter

 

[Mike]

Peter:

Walter Lord does mention Mrs. Astor giving a shawl to a lady who wrapped it around her little girl, then thanked her in Swedish. Of course, that could have been someone other than Mrs. Asplund (perhaps Mrs. Hamalainen, who has been listed as escaping in boat 4 and whose one- year-old son could have been mistaken for a little girl? I know she was Finnish, but many Finns also speak Swedish - although would Mrs. Astor have known the difference anyway?). Or that incident could have occurred later in the night, after some passengers were transferred from boat 14.

Boat 15 does seem to fit the circumstances you described, except for the fact that Steward Hart & others mention picking up ten more people from a lower deck (unless the Asplunds were included in that group).

From the perspective at that end of the boat deck, boat 15 certainly would have seemed the last boat (especially if boats 14 & 16 were leaving from the other side simultaneously). If indeed it was boat 15, it was doubly tragic in view of the fact that the boat was "absolutely packed" with men for the most part: two dozen each passengers and crew.

 

[Peter E]

Mike:

Walter Lord might mention Mrs Astor's shawl, but none of the Swedish survivors ever mention this. Mrs Hämäläinen describes her escaping from the sinking liner in boat 4, and she may well have been Swedish-speaking, which means this may have been the lady with a child referred to. Has anyone seen Mrs Astor mentioning giving a shawl away?
I know a few men claimed they were given a shawl by her, and/or that she dragged them into boat 4, but I doubt very much whether she gave a shawl to anyone (I may well be wrong, however)

Peter

 

[Michael Friedman (Mike)]

Peter,

Thanx for your observations; that raises the good question: Did Mrs. Astor ever claim to have given a shawl to anyone? She would have needed a whole suitcase full to have actually given shawls to everyone who claimed to have received one from her! And how is a woman "in delicate condition" as her husband decribed her, supposed to have dragged these men into her boat? Some of the claims remind me of Bernard Shaw's complaint that the disaster has accompanied by an outburst of "romantic lying". (More to come)

 

[Michael Friedman (Mike)]

Back to the question of which boat Mrs. Asplund escaped in. Assuming Mrs. Astor actually did give a shawl to a Swedish-speaking woman in boat #4, that would narrow down to four women with children who were possibly Swedish-speaking: Mrs. Hamalainen, who is believed to have been in #4, Mrs. Sandstrom, who is believed to have escaped in boat #13, Mrs. Hervonen, who is believed to have escaped in boat #15, & Mrs. Asplund. At this point I would suspect the woman in question was actually Mrs. Hamalainen. Her son could have been mistaken for a girl, considering how baby boys & girls were often dressed similarly.

Now, about Mrs. Asplund. If she & the 2 children had left in boat #4, Mr. Asplund would had had opportunity to hand the children (at least the two younger boys) over to be put in collapsible D, which was in close proximity. Mr. Navratil did just that with his two boys, & supposedly the crew was making desperate efforts to find women & children to get into the last boat.

I think it more likely that Mrs. Asplund left in boat #15 with 2 children, & from that location on deck it would have appeared to Mr. Asplund that all the boats were gone. As many others did, he may have despaired & headed aft, to the last part of the ship likely to remain above water.

 

[George Behe]

Peter E. wrote:

>Mrs Hämäläinen >describes her escaping from
>the sinking liner in boat 4, and she may well >have been
>Swedish-speaking, which means this may have been >the lady with a child
>referred to.

Hi, Peter!

Could you please quote Mrs. H's statement (and the source) where she said she was in boat #4? None of her interviews that I've seen specify which boat she was in. Thanks!

All my best,

George

 

[Peter Engberg-Klarström]

Dear George, Mrs Hämäläinen stated in a Chicago newspaper shortly after the disaster that she was in the next to last boat which picked up eight men, two of whom died, and the boat contained 40 or 50 people. This to me sounded a lot like boat 4.
Peter

 

[George Behe]

Peter wrote:

>Mrs Hämäläinen stated in a Chicago newspaper shortly after
>the disaster that she was in the next to last >boat which picked up >eight
>men, two of whom died, and the boat contained 40 or 50 people. >This to
>me sounded a lot like boat 4.

Hi, Peter!

Yes, I've seen that interview and it does indeed sound like a description of boat #4. However, Mrs. Hamalainen gave two independent interviews in Canada and Michigan in which she specified that she was saved in the last lifeboat launched and that it was boat #10.

As you know, it's very chancy for researchers to base far-reaching conclusions upon a single survivor interview -- especially if that interview appeared in a newspaper. Sometimes an individual survivor's story is reported so differently in various newspapers that we'd never guess they were talking about the same person if the survivor's name didn't appear in each account. That's why I take many of the web's 'passenger lifeboat assignments' with a huge grain of salt; IMO, 'newspaper article methodology' is far too flimsy for serious researchers to *definitely* place survivor X in lifeboat Y unless survivor X's interviews are all consistent with each other and are *specific* about which boat he/she was saved in. At the moment I think it would be fair to say that we don't know for *certain* which lifeboat Mrs. Hamalainen was saved in; perhaps it was #4, perhaps it was #10, or perhaps it was neither.

Hope you'll have a great holidy season, Peter.

All my best,

George

 

[Peter Engberg-Klarström]

Dear George, I thought I mentioned that Mrs Hämäläinen also gave interviews in Swedish-speaking Finnish newspapers e g 'Hufvudstadsbladet', also describing boat 4. I have never seen her mention boat 10 in any of the interviews. I don't say I'm right, however. I agree regarding placing people in boats based on one interview, particularly the male survivors, who all seem to have been swimming in the waters for hours on end before Mrs Astor picked them up, or they ended up on the upturned collapsible.

Peter

 

[Michael Findlay]

Dear Peter,

In addition to Mrs. Hamalainen's account in both the U.S. and Finnish newspapers, don't forget about Colonel Gracie's description of how he helped a woman and her baby into a late lifeboat.

Mrs. Hamalainen and her son were most definitely in boat #4. Her account in the Detroit paper was extremely detailed and leaves no doubt as to where she was. The fact that she was in boat #4 is confirmed by Colonel Gracie's description - who was certainly in the area of boat #4.

I have never seen any evidence to suggest she and her son were elsewhere and all of my researcher contacts agree.

Just my two cents worth....

Michael Findlay

 

[George Behe]

Mike Findlay wrote:

>Mrs. Hamalainen and her son were most definitely >in boat #4....
>I have never seen any evidence to suggest she and >her son were elsewhere
>and all of my researcher contacts agree.

Looks like you and your researcher contacts have missed a few sources.

 

[Michael Findlay]

We have seen the sources you mentioned but find that they are very poor in their descriptions of the disaster. The best interview by Mrs. Hamalainen was in the Detroit newspaper - she leaves no doubt as to where she was. I would suggest you read her account again....

Many thanks to all those who have e-mailed me privately regarding Mrs. Hamalainen and her son. I will respond to you all shortly but I was away for the holiday weekend. I hope you all enjoyed a very merry Christmas!

Best to all,

Mike Findlay

 

[George Behe]

>The best interview by Mrs. Hamalainen was in the >Detroit newspaper - she
>leaves no doubt as to where she was.

Not in your mind, perhaps....