Why were Asplunds separated?

[N Alison]

I always wondered the answer to this question myself. The oldest boy might have been considered too old to be counted as a child by why did Clarence, age 9 and Carl, age 5 not make it into a boat? Wouldn't if they had gotten to safety in either 15 or 4 there still be the collapsibles left for them to get into?

 

[Arun Vajpey]

I have always wondered about this sad separation and death in the Asplund family but I think there is an explanation as to why it happened.

In the first place, I believe the lifeboat in which Selma, Lillian and Edvin Felix Asplund were rescued was a late port boat, which explains Carl Sr and 13-year od Filip not being allowed to board. ET, while giving a large margin for alternatives, believes that they were rescued on Lifeboat #10, which was one of the later portside boats. But IMO Lifeboat #4, in which many others believe the 3 surviving Asplunds were saved, is a greater possibility.

23 years ago Michael Findlay posted this excerpt at the beginning of this thread. He said he had spoken to Lillian Asplund in 1989 and so it is first hand information.

She remembered that her mother got in holding her brother Felix (and had to climb through a window).

To me, the need for Selma, Lillian and Edvin Felix to go through a window to get into the lifeboat suggests it was Lifeboat #4. Lightoller was in charge and he would not have allowed Carl Sr or Filip to board for certain ("No more boys!"). As for 9-year old Clarence and 5-year old Carl Jr, there really might not have been time, especially if the two young boys had clung to their father in fear and showed reluctance to board. There was not much time and Lightoller was not the sort of man who would have tried to persuade or even wait for the boys to join their mother and siblings in the boat. With all concerned increasingly edgy and pushed for time, Lightoller simply could have given the order to lower away when the two boys did not willingly get on board.

Apparently, the boat lowered so fast that the rest of the children couldn't be dropped in. Mr. Asplund was last seen leading the other boys away from the rail - presumably to find another boat.

If Carl Sr had really told his wife "You go, we will get into one of the other boats", he would have meant exactly that. He might have known or guessed that there were other lifeboats, but the trio had remained on the port side, their only option would have been Collapsible D. But with the crowded chaos around that boat and the need to get through the sailor's cordon, many passengers who would have been allowed could not even get close enough to board (Edith Evans for example). Even if Carl Asplund Sr had tried to emulate Michel Navratil and hand over only the children, they mght not have been willing to leave him and/or terrified by the 3-foot gap between Collapsible D and the side of the ship due to the port list. We must remember that Wilde and Lightoller lowered Collapsible D in a hurry and only half-full because the crowd situation was getting out of hand.

I personally think the 3 Asplund survivors were on Lifeboat #4 for reasons mentioned above and not on Lifeboat #10. Murdoch was in charge of #10 when it was lowered and although it had "40 to 50 people" on board, there certainly was room for Filip, Clarence and Carl Jr and Murdoch would not have stopped the father boarding with his children.

 

[N Alison]

I have always wondered about this sad separation and death in the Asplund family but I think there is an explanation as to why it happened.

In the first place, I believe the lifeboat in which Selma, Lillian and Edvin Felix Asplund were rescued was a late port boat, which explains Carl Sr and 13-year od Filip not being allowed to board. ET, while giving a large margin for alternatives, believes that they were rescued on Lifeboat #10, which was one of the later portside boats. But IMO Lifeboat #4, in which many others believe the 3 surviving Asplunds were saved, is a greater possibility.

23 years ago Michael Findlay posted this excerpt at the beginning of this thread. He said he had spoken to Lillian Asplund in 1989 and so it is first hand information.

To me, the need for Selma, Lillian and Edvin Felix to go through a window to get into the lifeboat suggests it was Lifeboat #4. Lightoller was in charge and he would not have allowed Carl Sr or Filip to board for certain ("No more boys!"). As for 9-year old Clarence and 5-year old Carl Jr, there really might not have been time, especially if the two young boys had clung to their father in fear and showed reluctance to board. There was not much time and Lightoller was not the sort of man who would have tried to persuade or even wait for the boys to join their mother and siblings in the boat. With all concerned increasingly edgy and pushed for time, Lightoller simply could have given the order to lower away when the two boys did not willingly get on board.


If Carl Sr had really told his wife "You go, we will get into one of the other boats", he would have meant exactly that. He might have known or guessed that there were other lifeboats, but the trio had remained on the port side, their only option would have been Collapsible D. But with the crowded chaos around that boat and the need to get through the sailor's cordon, many passengers who would have been allowed could not even get close enough to board (Edith Evans for example). Even if Carl Asplund Sr had tried to emulate Michel Navratil and hand over only the children, they mght not have been willing to leave him and/or terrified by the 3-foot gap between Collapsible D and the side of the ship due to the port list. We must remember that Wilde and Lightoller lowered Collapsible D in a hurry and only half-full because the crowd situation was getting out of hand.

I personally think the 3 Asplund survivors were on Lifeboat #4 for reasons mentioned above and not on Lifeboat #10. Murdoch was in charge of #10 when it was lowered and although it had "40 to 50 people" on board, there certainly was room for Filip, Clarence and Carl Jr and Murdoch would not have stopped the father boarding with his children.

Interesting. I had never heard lifeboat 10 suggested as the Asplund's escape. Always 15 or 4. The comment about the window does make it sound like #4 is the boat being talked about. I wonder what Carl Sr. attempted to do after the boat left. He might have headed to the stern the way so many others did. How far from 4 would the collapses be?

 

[Arun Vajpey]

I had never heard lifeboat 10 suggested as the Asplund's escape. Always 15 or 4.

Lifeboat #10 is considered as the possibility here on ET on the surviving Asplunds' bios. I think some may favour #10 over #4 because as a family travelling Third Class, there was greater likelihood of them being berthed in the stern section. However, I believe there were exceptions to that; also, we do not know exactly when the family arrived on the boat deck. If they arrived more than an hour before the final plunge, then there was the possibility that they moved forward on the port side. IMO, Lillian's eidence very strongly suggests that the three were rescued on Lifeboat #4.

I do not believe that they were anywhere near Lifeboat #15, which was loaded in 2 stages, first from the Boat Deck with Muroch and (then) Moody in charge and then from A-deck, probably with Nichols and/or McElroy supervising. They were actively looking for women and children and are believed to have even sent out a few 'scouts' to find any stragglers nearby. If the Asplund family had been standing around, the kids certainly would have been ushered into the lifeboat. I know that Lifeboat #15 was almost full to capacity when it was lowered, but AFAIK no one on board mentioned 3 chidren being left behind with their father.

I wonder what Carl Sr. attempted to do after the boat left. He might have headed to the stern the way so many others did. How far from 4 would the collapses be?

If, as I believe they were, the 3 surviving Asplunds left on Lifeboat #4, Carl Asplund Sr most likely followed the crowd to where Collapsible D was being fitted to the davits (which probably explains his parting comment to his wife about finding another boat). To do that, they could have taken 2 routes; either up the narrow stairway at the forward end of the 1st Class promenade area that led to the boat deck and davits vacated by Lifeboat #2 (to which Collapsible D was being fitted) or the longer route by going back in and then up the grand staircase. With 3 kids in tow, it is more likely that Carl Sr chose the latter and in doing so might have got hemmed-in by the crowd and so unable to get through on time.

Theoretically and with hindsight, after Lifeboat #4 was lowered there was still time for Carl Sr and the remaining Asplunds to cross over to the starboard side and reach Collapsible C as it was still being loaded. But I doubt if they did that - again, there are no witness accounts of seeing them there. Ismay testified, IMO truthfully, that he carefully checked that there were no women or children about before he entered Collapsible C himself just before it was lowered at about 01:58 am.

 

[N Alison]

God look at my post. It's a mess. That's what I get for posting when sleep deprived I guess. The post doesn't seem to be letting me edit it anymore either. Anyway you have given me interesting food for thought. The Asplund's were always one of the families I wondered the most about. I always wondered what happened that the younger two boys were not at least saved.

 

[Arun Vajpey]

The issue with the likes of Martta Hiltunen, Edith Evans, Carl Asplund Sr and the 3 kids....and several others who narrowly missed getting into one lifeboat or another towards the end is that at the time they did not know what was going to happen next or what options they had left. We know those things with hindsight based on evidence gathered from decades of research and collation, but on board the sinking Titanic and with limited time left, they did not. Therefore, while it would seem to us that it would have been common sense for Carl Sr to usher his kids to where Collapsible D was being loaded or even quickly cross over to the starboard side and Collapsible C, it is unlikely that he even knew about those lifeboats beforehand or if he did, the exact situation around them amidst the noise and confusion. He had told his wife that he would find "another boat" for the 3 remaining kids and himself but there were many many others who like him were hoping for places on either Collapsible C or D. With 3 kids to think of, Carl Asplund would have found it difficult to be decisive and probably hesitated long enough to literally miss the boat.

Sometimes, having a choice can actually be counter-productive due to vagaries of human nature. If somone had told Carl Asplund Sr that Collapsible D was absolutely the last lifeboat and so the only option he had to save his kids at least, he probably would have forced his way through the crowd using the children as incentive and handed them over like Michel Navratil did. But if he had thought that there were other boats too, he might have watsed precious minutes indecisively and in the end paid for it with the lives of those kids and his own.

 

[N Alison]

All very true. For them it would have been confusion at the end. They did not have the knowledge we do more than 100 years later. I cannot imagine how traumatizing it all must have been and am not surprised that the surviving family talked so little about it all.