Why were boats 2 4 & D only half filled when they were the last boats to leave the titanic

[Michael Findlay]

Hi everyone,

One thing that always troubled me was the fact that poor Edith Evans was told there was no more room for her in boat D, and so she gave her place to Mrs. Caroline Brown, a mother with several children.

As boat D slowly descends to the water, Hugh Woolner and Hakan Bjornstrom-Steffanson seize the opportunity to leap into the boat as A deck begins to flood. One of them turned to the other and said, "Look, there's plenty of room in her bow!" Both men made it into the boat - furthermore passenger jumpers like Frederick Hoyt swam up to the boat and was pulled in. Hard to believe that the officials felt they couldn't squeeze one more woman in the boat and yet three men find room minutes later in various ways.

There are some, of course, who are of the opinion that Edith Evans elected to remain aboard - thus sacrificing herself. She had apparently been foretold "to beware of the water" and perhaps that's why she still decided to remain on the ship.

It's also no wonder that women like Mrs. Harris was stung by the fact that her husband lost his life when there was room in the boat for him. He just wasn't at the right place at the right time.

Just my thoughts,

Kind regards to all,

Miek Findlay

 

[Tad G. Fitch]

That is interesting, because if Edith Evans elected to remain on board based on something someone said to her about water, then she really created a self-fulfilling prophecy. I wonder why she wasn't bundled into the lifeboat or tossed in despite her reluctance like some of the women at lifeboat #10 were?

If the estimate of 44 people in Collapsible D was accurate, they should have been able to squeeze a few more in, since it could supposedly hold 47, and probably a few more if overcrowded.

I wonder if the crew was simply anxious to get the boat away since Lightoller knew the boat deck was only 10 feet above the waterline at that time, and had seen water creeping higher when looking down the stairs? Wilde surely would have been aware of this as well.

I do think many people survived simply by being in the right place at the right time, or simply by having gone to one side of the ship instead of another.

Kind regards,
Tad

 

[Samuel Halpern]

>>where did the information that Collapsible D left only half-full come from? <<

I wonder if it came from this site where they list the number in each boat under Survivors?
When I look at those numbers they had #2 - 17, #4 - 36, and #D - 23. Official stated capacities of emergency boats was 40, regular boats was 65, and the collapsibles was 47.

Gracie had #2 - 25, #4 - 40, and #D - 44.

 

[Lester Mitcham]

Hello Tad,

Looking at Gracie pages 203/204 at the American Inquiry Bright estimated that after Lowe had transferred about 10 or 12 into the boat and taken 1 man out that there were 37 in Boat D. Hardy's count before the transfers was 25. http://www.titanicinquiry.org/USInq/AmInq09Bright01.php After the transfers in Hardy thought about 35 in the boat. http://www.titanicinquiry.org/USInq/AmInq07Hardy01.php

Photographs of D taken as she approached the Carpathia are not suggestive of a boat that was anywhere near full. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Titanic-lifeboat.gif

I believe D was only half full when she was launched. As with most of the boats I have no idea as to how Mersey arrived at many of his figures.

Regards,
Lester

 

[Tad G. Fitch]

Thanks Lester. Gracie got his estimate of 44 from the British Inquiry. ABS Lucas testified that there were around 40 women and 3 men in the boat, so maybe his estimate is where Mersey got his figure from?

Hardy did estimate a much lower number of passengers at 25. His testimony isn't clear whether this includes the crewmembers, but Bright seems to indicate that it did. Obviously, that is not close to the capacity of 47, although Bright said that it was.

The number being listed as the total after transfer from Lowe's boat would be where the discrepancy in figures comes from then.

I do know that Mersey overestimated the number of survivors in the aft lifeboats, and gave a large combined number of something like 60 for Collapsible A and B, when it was likely closer to 40, give or take a few.

Kind regards,
Tad

 

[Lester Mitcham]

Hi Tad,

Thank you for that. I had not looked to see if Lucas testified at the BI. A somewhat confusing testimony.

Kind Regards,
Lester

 

[Martin Williams]

The question of precisely why Edith Evans failed to find a seat in Collapsible D beside Caroline Brown has been exhaustively debated over the years. I'd like a solution to this perplexing conundrum as much as anybody. All sorts of theories have been advanced, some of them quite imaginative - was she wearing a constrictive hobble-skirt which prevented her from making the jump from the deck into the boat? Did she believe that it was her destiny to die in a shipwreck? - but we're no nearer to achieving a definitive answer.

It should be remembered that Colonel Gracie, who was actually there on the night in question, was similarly flummoxed. By his own account, he questioned the surviving crewmen who had been stationed near Collapsible D on this very point but failed to arrive at a satisfactory conclusion. It could be that, lady or no lady, and with the situation reaching a truly critical stage, she was simply prevented from boarding the boat by those desperate to get it away in time. A fact which, although understandable, resulted in the unnecessary death of a young woman and was conveniently over-looked during the myth-making process of selfless male gallantry which took place in the days and weeks following the sinking.

It is certainly curious, though, that Mrs Brown is not, to the best of my knowledge, on record as making any kind of adverse comment on the behaviour of the men stationed near Collapsible D. She seems to have stressed in no uncertain terms that Edith made the conscious decision not to board when she might have done - which is surely not a line she would have taken had she believed that her friend's life had been needlessly sacrificed?

Now, at the distance of nearly a century, I don't suppose we'll ever know for sure. Just another tantalising, frustrating enigma to add to the long list of those we're left with from that night.

 

[Peter Engberg-Klarström]

hello, everybody. Actually, I believe Caroline Brown entered boat 4, based on her interviews, and not D. There were other ladies near No. 4, besides Edith Evans, who did not enter it; Martta Hiltunen and Mrs. Chapman, e. g.

 

[Michael Findlay]

Hi Peter,

Sorry for not having my notes readily available, and I know we have discussed this matter numerous times before regarding Mrs. Brown being either in boat 4 or boat D, but didn't William Lucas, who left in D, call up to Miss Evans on the deck, "There is another boat going to be put down for you!"

Yes, I remember Mrs. Brown's account which did seem to indicate she could have been in boat 4, but given Col. Gracie's research and the statement made by Mr. Lucas, I still believe the ladies were at boat D. Just my opinion, of course.

Twenty years since we first met, Peter, and we're still trying to place these survivors in their proper lifeboats!

Hope you are well!

Kind regards,

Mike

 

[Peter Engberg-Klarström]

Hello, Mike, delighted to hear from you! Actually, I don't think it was ever established who, if any, called to Miss Evans that there was another boat...
Perhaps I am mistaken, however, but I cannot remember who said this....At any rate, Miss Evans was not the only lady in that area.

Best regards,

Peter

 

[Michael Findlay]

Hi Peter,

Absolutely. Yes, I will have to check William Lucas' testimony. I distinctly recall that comment to Miss Evans coming from Walter Lord's book, A Night to Remember so perhaps this is where I'm thinking Walter was basing his writing on Lucas' version of events. Poor Walter did in fact, a few times, take some liberties and "added" some details of his own to the book. He freely admitted to me that his editor encouraged it in some instances for dramatic effect.

 

[Paul Lee]

I recall reading an account that said that Mr.Futrelle was forced away from "a lifeboat" (which I presume was D) at gunpoint. Is this right? I can't put my hand on the story at present, but it came from Mrs.Futrelle via another source.

 

[Bill Wormstedt]

A chart of the lifeboat totals from both the British Inquiry, and Gracie's book here:

Lifeboat Survivor Totals