Winnie Troutt's Lifeboat

[Arun Vajpey]

What is the current thinking about the number of the lifeboat in which Second Class passenger Edwina "Winnie" Troutt was saved? On her ET bio it says that there is a lot of disagreement about this and there would be updates posted as and when more information comes in, but I have not seen any for a while (unless I missed it). Most accounts suggest that she was on one of the later lifeboats and as far as I can see #16 seems to be one of the candidates.

However, the bio also suggests that Winnie Troutt might have left the ship after her roommate Nora Keane and on the latter's own bio, the speculation is that Keane might have been rescued on Lifeboat #10, watched by Troutt. If that was the case, it narrows down Winnie Troutt's lifeboat to Collapsible C or D, more likely the latter as this was on the same side of the ship as #10 (which was what Don Lynch speculated at some stage). Also, it is said that Winnie Troutt accepted charge of a baby from a man before entering the lifeboat and if so, Collapsible D becomes a greater possibility since no men were allowed on port side lifeboats.

If that baby story is true, could that have been Edmund Navratil?

 

[Jason D. Tiller]

What is the current thinking about the number of the lifeboat in which Second Class passenger Edwina "Winnie" Troutt was saved?

According to the last poster via this link, Edwina was in lifeboat 13:

Edwina Celia Troutt

Cool- Welcome Aboard Edwina.

www.encyclopedia-titanica.org

If that baby story is true, could that have been Edmund Navratil?

No, as both Navratil brothers were in lifeboat 11. Edith Rosenbaum played her musical toy pig for them to keep the children calm, during the time they spent in the lifeboat.

 

[Arun Vajpey]

Thanks. The reason that I am particularly interested in the boat that Winnie Troutt was in relates to a statement on p16 of Judith Geller's book Titanic: Women and Children First, which says that she "remembered" Bess Allison standing on the boat deck with daughter Loraine and screaming. The book does not give details of the source of that information (unless I have missed it) but I do recall reading that somewhere else years ago. In that other account, the source of which I cannot recall, Troutt said that her lifeboat was about to be lowered at the time.

If Winnie Troutt was in Lifeboat #13, that clashes somewhat with the info here on ET relating to her watching Nora Keane leave and then almost resigning herself to be left on board before being handed a baby with whom she eventually boarded a lifeboat. Also on ET, the speculation is that the baby could have been As'sad Tannus (later Assed Thomas) but I was thinking of other possibilities when I mentioned Edmund Navratil.

The trio of portside aft Lifeboats #16, #14 and #12 were lowered between 01:20 am and 01:30 am while Lifeboat #13 on the starboard side was launched at around 01:40 am. IF that story about Winnie Troutt seeing Bess Allison is true, that suggests that even relatively later in the sinking process Bess and Hudson Allison had not found each other - implying that they were separated earlier near Lifeboat #6.

I did dismiss that story at first, believing that there was no way a British woman travelling second class (Troutt) could have recognized a Canadian first class passenger. But if the incident happened when Winnie Troutt was in a lifeboat, then one of the first class passengers also on board could have told her.

 

[Encyclopedia Titanica]

Hi Arun,
Don Lynch has written a very thorough article in a recent Titanic Commutator on this very subject. He has also sent me a summary to include on ET but as some of the points are contradicted by others I want to just edit it so the alternative views are represented, but I've not have time to put it up yet. I'll try to do so shortly. But basically that article concludes she was most likely in boat D. But other researchers think that she was more likely in one of the stern boats.

 

[Arun Vajpey]

Thanks. Some early accounts have the Navtratil children in Collapsible D, depicting the scene where "Louis Hoffmann" (Michel Navratil Sr) politely handed his 2 boys through the cordon and stepped back. That was why I wondered if the baby handed to Edwina Troutt could have been the younger of the two boys, Edmund Navratil.

I accept that those boys could have been rescued on Lifeboat #11 like Jason said above. But the one thing that makes me question that is the fact that #11 was a starboard "Murdoch boat" where even single men were allowed if there was room. That being the case, I would have thought that Murdoch would not have turned away a father with 2 small children; also from Michel Sr's own perspective, he comes across as man who wanted to build a life for him and his children in America and seeing that it was possible for a man to get into #11, he might have tried to get in with his kids.

Of course, it is generally believed that Lifeboat #11 was quite crowded and that might have been a reason why only the Navratil kids were allowed. But that would still have left #13, #15 and Collapsible C as possibilities for Michel Sr. I would have thought that a man who went to such lengths to kidnap his kids from the estranged wife would have tried his best to join them.

Getting back to Winnie Troutt's statement about seeing Bess and Loraine Allison on the deck, if true, I wonder when and where it happened. Troutt must have been very near or actually inside a lifeboat when she saw the other two, with Bess holding Loraine's hand and 'screaming'. First Class passengers in Edwina Troutt's lifeboat could have told her who the woman and child on the deck were.

 

[Jason D. Tiller]

Some early accounts have the Navtratil children in Collapsible D, depicting the scene where "Louis Hoffmann" (Michel Navratil Sr) politely handed his 2 boys through the cordon and stepped back. That was why I wondered if the baby handed to Edwina Troutt could have been the younger of the two boys, Edmund Navratil.

Yes I've seen that, but I don't think it is widely known. So I'm hesitant to put much stock in it.

But the one thing that makes me question that is the fact that #11 was a starboard "Murdoch boat"

According to the elder Michel Navatril's biography:

"When Second Officer Charles Lightoller ordered a locked-arms circle of crew members around the boat so that only women and children could get through, Navratil handed the boys through the ring of men."

Getting back to Winnie Troutt's statement about seeing Bess and Loraine Allison on the deck, if true, I wonder when and where it happened. Troutt must have been very near or actually inside a lifeboat when she saw the other two, with Bess holding Loraine's hand and 'screaming'. First Class passengers in Edwina Troutt's lifeboat could have told her who the woman and child on the deck were.

I'm not sure, but it's an interesting point to consider.

 

[Arun Vajpey]

According to the elder Michel Navatril's biography:

"When Second Officer Charles Lightoller ordered a locked-arms circle of crew members around the boat so that only women and children could get through, Navratil handed the boys through the ring of men."

But that statement seems to suggest that the Navratil kids were in Collapsible D, which was where Lightoller had his crew link arms and form a cordon though which only women and children were allowed access into the lifeboat. As far as I know, Lightoller was nowhere near Lifeboat #11.

Michel Navratil Jr was almost 4 years old at the time and going by his biography, seemed to recall a few things about his time on the Titanic. Comparing that with my own memories from that age, I'd say that he would have retained things like the crowds and noise on the deck on a dark and cold night and his father handing him across into the lifeboat. Of course, Michel Jr would not have known about the man in charge - Lightoller - and the exact circumstances at the time but would have put two and two together in later years as he read about the Titanic disaster of which he knew he was one of the survivors.

 

[Jason D. Tiller]

But that statement seems to suggest that the Navratil kids were in Collapsible D, which was where Lightoller had his crew link arms and form a cordon though which only women and children were allowed access into the lifeboat. As far as I know, Lightoller was nowhere near Lifeboat #11.

Right and I believe you are correct in your last sentence. I don't put much stock in it, but posted it to consider both sides. I don't know if we'll ever be able to solve it but according to what I have read so far, the Navratil children were in lifeboat 11.

 

[Peter Engberg-Klarström]

It was thought in 1912 that the Navratil boys were rescued in boat D, but evidence is actually rather scant; Hugh Woolner is the only source for this and he only mentioned one child - he thought it was one of the Navratil boys, but he did not say he was certain. As far as I know there were no second class passengers rescued forward of the aft lifeboats (how would they have had access to the forward deck?) so chances are they Navratil boys were rescued in an aft lifeboat. As for Edwina Troutt, to me it seems rather clear that she left in boat No. 16, having mentioned master-at-arms Bailey being in charge of her lifeboat. She thought there were 35 or so people in the boat, corresponding closely to the number believed to have left in No. 16 (boat D held only about 15 or so people when it was lowered away). She also said she left at 1.15, which by altered ship's time may have been somewhere between 1.35 and 1.40. Her room mates Nora Keane (possibly No. 10) and Suzie Webber (No. 10) also left from that part of the ship.

 

[Arun Vajpey]

As for Edwina Troutt, to me it seems rather clear that she left in boat No. 16, having mentioned master-at-arms Bailey being in charge of her lifeboat. She thought there were 35 or so people in the boat, corresponding closely to the number believed to have left in No. 16 (boat D held only about 15 or so people when it was lowered away). She also said she left at 1.15, which by altered ship's time may have been somewhere between 1.35 and 1.40

Thanks for that. I was also working on the possibility that Edwina Troutt was rescued on Lifeboat #16, which, going by Bill Wormstedt's revised lifeboat launch times, was lowered between 01:20 and 01:25 am.

If that was the case and Winnie Troutt was in that lifeboat just as it getting ready to be lowered, she might have seen Bess and Loraine Allison (just like she is supposed to have claimed) after the pair got out of Lifeboat #6 at the last moment before it was lowered. If Bess got out to search for Hudson, her first inclination would have been to move aft on the port side before crossing over to the starboard side. If Bess and Loraine had done that, they could have come to the area where Moody and Lowe were busy loading Lifeboats #16, #14 and #12. In Judith Geller's book (and I am certain I have read that account at least in one other source), Bess was "holding Loraine's hand and screaming" when Edwina Troutt saw her; if she was true it would have attracted some attention, including that of any First Class women in the vicinity, from whom Troutt could have learned the identity of the screaming woman and her child.

Her room mates Nora Keane (possibly No. 10) and Suzie Webber (No. 10) also left from that part of the ship.

Possible, but on Winnie Troutt's bio here on ET (of which you are one of the main contributors), it says that she (Troutt) saw Nora Keane enter a lifeboat and had resigned herself to her fate before being handed a baby, with whom she entered another lifeboat. Since Lifeboat #10 was lowered almost half an hour after #16, it creates an anomaly.

 

[Peter Engberg-Klarström]

I have read a few of Edwina Troutt's accounts and I must admit I have not seen any reference to the Allisons in those intervifews (how would she have known them?) I cannot exactly recall the she said she actually saw Miss Keane enter a lifeboat either...?

 

[Encyclopedia Titanica]

Here is the summary Don sent me a few weeks ago along with some other corrections. It explains his reasoning for putting Winnie in boat D, although for the full explanation you should look up the article Winnie's Boat in the Titanic Commutator. For ET I wanted to come up with a wording that took the different views into account but I have to confess I haven't got around to it yet. Perhaps this discussion will spur me on! Incidentally @Arun Vajpey the credits on a bio just mention all those that contributed in some way, it doesn't mean they all agree with the wording!

In a letter written to her parents while aboard the Carpathia, and later published in the Bath Chronicle (4 May 1912) she stated that her lifeboat had departed at 1:15 a.m. and was picked up by the Carpathia at 6:15 a.m., times which have confused researchers who did not take into account that she had turned her watch back 47 minutes before going to bed to allow for the time change that would occur during the night. This is verified by a letter she wrote to Jacob Milling’s wife, where she gave the time of the collision as 10:55 p.m.

For many years, late in her life, Edwina claimed to have been in boat 13. However, she firmly denied that any lifeboat came down over their heads the way boat 15 nearly came down on top of 13.

In late May of 1912 Edwina gave an interview to the Boston Sunday Herald in which she described the Master-at-Arms, Henry Joseph Bailey, as being among the crew in her boat. She also identified the presence of “Mrs. Faunthorpe” and said the boat contained twenty women, at least a dozen children, and five crewmen.

While it is known that Bailey was in boat 16, it is recognized as the first of the aft boats to leave the ship. It would have been impossible for Winnie to have seen it being uncovered, gone below and knocked on doors, helped people on with lifebelts, spoken with Milling and Andrew, gone to her cabin and helped Miss Keane dress, and then come back on deck and gone all the way forward to watch boats being loaded and lowered, only to return all the way aft on the deck to enter the first boat in that section to leave. In addition, the timing of the boat leaving the ship does not match hers. It can only be assumed that she met Bailey on board the Carpathia, and in comparing boats found enough in common that she concluded they were in the same one.

Edwina did indicate in her 1912 accounts that she left very late in the sinking, that the ship had sunk to “the second deck” when she reached her lifeboat, and that the Navratil boys were in it, recognizing them from newspaper accounts as the children survivor Margaret Hays had taken into her care. News media was widespread over the case of the two French waifs who survived, apparently parentless. In the same interview Edwina described their French father, later identified as Michel Navratil, passing his two children into the boat.

It is believed that the Navratil boys were in collapsible lifeboat D, where one of them was recognized by first class passenger Hugh Woolner. Some researchers suggest that they may have been transferred in from another boat, but the older boy never recalled such a thing in later life, nor did Edwina ever mention seeing them transferred.

Edwina also recalled singing as the boat was rowed away from the Titanic.

Although it cannot be confirmed, it appears that the most likely lifeboat for Edwina to have escaped in was collapsible boat D.

 

[Arun Vajpey]

I have read a few of Edwina Troutt's accounts and I must admit I have not seen any reference to the Allisons in those intervifews (how would she have known them?) I cannot exactly recall the she said she actually saw Miss Keane enter a lifeboat either...?

I have read in two separate sources about Edwina Troutt claiming that she saw Bess and Loraine Allison on the deck that night, but I don't know how reliable they are. The first time was a few years ago on-line but I do not remember the details of the source; what I do remember is that Troutt stating that she herself was actually in the boat that was about to be lowered when she saw the other two.

The second source, as I have already mentioned, is Judith Geller's book TITANIC: Women and Children First; at the bottom of p16, there is an allusion to Winnie Troutt seeing Bess and Loraine on the deck but unless I have missed it, Geller does not give a reference to that information. I consider the book poorly researched and full of inaccuracies and so this supposed sighting may well be one of them.

As to how Winnie Troutt, a British second class passenger, could have known Bess and Loraine Allison - Canadian First Class passengers, at first I did dismiss the information as unlikely precisely for the same reason. But if Bess was making a scene near Lifeboat #16 in which Winnie Troutt was already sitting, some First Class passenger in the vicinity might have said who the screaming woman was and Troutt could have overheard that. By 01:20 there was reportedly quite a crowd around #16, #14 and #12.

As regards the Nora Keane incident, it is mentioned right here on ET in both their bios how Winnie Troutt helped the older woman to dress warmly and wear a life vest, admonished her for wanting to wear her corset (which Troutt threw aside) and took her up to the boat deck. Nora Keane is considered only possibly to have been rescued on Lifeboat #10 but that could be correct because Keane herself described a 'foreign' man who entered the boat in the last minute and though he was initially looked down upon by the other occupants, was later very useful as he helped to row. That fits in very well with Masabumi Hosono, who was saved on Lifeboat #10.

But if Nora Keane was on Lifeboat #10, both ET bios strongly suggest that Winnie Troutt was on a later lifeboat. Since Lifeboat #10 was lowered at 01:50 am, Winnie Troutt then could not then have been on Lifeboat #16, launched almost half-an-hour earlier. But she could very much have been on Collapsible D that was launched some 15 minutes after Lifeboat #10. Two things in Troutt's ET bio support the Collapsible D possibility one is that she apparently had resigned herself to her fate after not following Nora Keane into Lifeboat #10 - which is possible since other than Lifeboat #4 launched almost at the same time as #10, there was no other lifeboat obviously available that could be seen. Winnie Troutt at the time might not have realized that even then Collapsible D was being fitted inti the davits of Lifeboat #2 lowered about 5 minutes earlier; perhaps she could not see the spot from her vantage point near Lifeboat #10's now empty davits. But she must have found that out within minutes though because she was saved on another lifeboat, which could only have been Collapsible D if she had remained on the port side. That was why I wondered if the baby handed to her by a man was Edmund Navratil. Some accounts have Michel Navratil Sr handing over his 2 boys across the cordon around Collapsible D and it fits.

But if Winnie Troutt was indeed on Collapsible D, then we can only assume that she saw Bess and Lorraine Allison on the boat deck earlier and not when she - Troutt - herself was getting into the lifeboat. Either way, she could only have learned the identities of the other two from some nearby First Class passenger.

 

[Peter Engberg-Klarström]

I have read in two separate sources about Edwina Troutt claiming that she saw Bess and Loraine Allison on the deck that night, but I don't know how reliable they are. The first time was a few years ago on-line but I do not remember the details of the source; what I do remember is that Troutt stating that she herself was actually in the boat that was about to be lowered when she saw the other two.

The second source, as I have already mentioned, is Judith Geller's book TITANIC: Women and Children First; at the bottom of p16, there is an allusion to Winnie Troutt seeing Bess and Loraine on the deck but unless I have missed it, Geller does not give a reference to that information. I consider the book poorly researched and full of inaccuracies and so this supposed sighting may well be one of them.

As to how Winnie Troutt, a British second class passenger, could have known Bess and Loraine Allison - Canadian First Class passengers, at first I did dismiss the information as unlikely precisely for the same reason. But if Bess was making a scene near Lifeboat #16 in which Winnie Troutt was already sitting, some First Class passenger in the vicinity might have said who the screaming woman was and Troutt could have overheard that. By 01:20 there was reportedly quite a crowd around #16, #14 and #12.

As regards the Nora Keane incident, it is mentioned right here on ET in both their bios how Winnie Troutt helped the older woman to dress warmly and wear a life vest, admonished her for wanting to wear her corset (which Troutt threw aside) and took her up to the boat deck. Nora Keane is considered only possibly to have been rescued on Lifeboat #10 but that could be correct because Keane herself described a 'foreign' man who entered the boat in the last minute and though he was initially looked down upon by the other occupants, was later very useful as he helped to row. That fits in very well with Masabumi Hosono, who was saved on Lifeboat #10.

But if Nora Keane was on Lifeboat #10, both ET bios strongly suggest that Winnie Troutt was on a later lifeboat. Since Lifeboat #10 was lowered at 01:50 am, Winnie Troutt then could not then have been on Lifeboat #16, launched almost half-an-hour earlier. But she could very much have been on Collapsible D that was launched some 15 minutes after Lifeboat #10. Two things in Troutt's ET bio support the Collapsible D possibility one is that she apparently had resigned herself to her fate after not following Nora Keane into Lifeboat #10 - which is possible since other than Lifeboat #4 launched almost at the same time as #10, there was no other lifeboat obviously available that could be seen. Winnie Troutt at the time might not have realized that even then Collapsible D was being fitted inti the davits of Lifeboat #2 lowered about 5 minutes earlier; perhaps she could not see the spot from her vantage point near Lifeboat #10's now empty davits. But she must have found that out within minutes though because she was saved on another lifeboat, which could only have been Collapsible D if she had remained on the port side. That was why I wondered if the baby handed to her by a man was Edmund Navratil. Some accounts have Michel Navratil Sr handing over his 2 boys across the cordon around Collapsible D and it fits.

But if Winnie Troutt was indeed on Collapsible D, then we can only assume that she saw Bess and Lorraine Allison on the boat deck earlier and not when she - Troutt - herself was getting into the lifeboat. Either way, she could only have learned the identities of the other two from some nearby First Class passenger.

The only problem here is of course that second class passengers simply did not walk forward of the aft boat deck - they all seem to have stayed there; people did not exactly run back and forth during the night of the sinking. To the best of my knowledge there were no second class passengers rescued in any forward boat.
Also, what I meant was the question whether Edwina Troutt in fact personally witnessed Nora Keane entering a lifeboat or whether they parted on deck prior to Miss Keane entering her boat. They may have parted company shortly after coming up on deck. I am not sure exactly when boat 10 was lowered - there are a few theories regarding the time. I find the aft boats rather difficult to establish when it comes to time and order of lowering.
Part from the fact that there very likely were no second class passengers rescued in any forward boat, boat D held only about 15 people when it was lowered away, which is nowhere near Miss Troutt's estimate of those in her boat. Nor does it comply with her statement that master-at-arms Bailey was in charge of her lifeboat.

 

[Seumas]

Part from the fact that there very likely were no second class passengers rescued in any forward boat, boat D held only about 15 people when it was lowered away, which is nowhere near Miss Troutt's estimate of those in her boat. Nor does it comply with her statement that master-at-arms Bailey was in charge of her lifeboat.

According to Bill Wormstedt and Tad Fitch, Collapsible D had:

Twenty occupants as lowered from the ship.

Twenty three occupants after picking up the male "jumpers".

Thirty five occupants by the time it reached the Carpathia after receiving twelve people from Boat Fourteen.