Winnie Troutt's Lifeboat

[Arun Vajpey]

The only problem here is of course that second class passengers simply did not walk forward of the aft boat deck - they all seem to have stayed there; people did not exactly run back and forth during the night of the sinking. To the best of my knowledge there were no second class passengers rescued in any forward boat.

I accept that but Collapsible D was not just any forward lifeboat. It was the very last lifeboat to be properly launched off the Titanic and by then almost all those left on the boat deck would have known that. Sure, by 02:05 am, the time when #D was lowered, some passengers had probably already started making for the apparent 'safety' of the still dry and rising stern. But there could have been a few second class passengers in the vicinity of Collapsible D. IF Nora Keane did depart on Lifeboat #10 and Edwina Troutt was temporarily left behind, the latter would have seen that there were no further lifeboats left to fit to the aft davits and the natural inclination then would have been to move forward. With about 15 minutes between the launches of Lifeboat #10 and Collapsible D, it is not inconceivable that Winnie Troutt ended up near the latter boat in which case, as a woman, she would have been let through the cordon.

For reasons mentioned by Seumas above, Troutt's estimate of the number of people on her lifeboat could be subject to error. Apart from the fact that like most others she would have been tense and concerned at that late stage, we have to consider what stage occupancy she was referring to when she made that estimate. If she had meant after receiving people from Lowe's lifeboat #14, then she would not have been too far off the mark.

 

[Peter Engberg-Klarström]

The only problem here is of course that second class passengers simply did not walk forward of the aft boat deck - they all seem to have stayed there; people did not exactly run back and forth during the night of the sinking. To the best of my knowledge there were no second class passengers rescued in any forward boat.
Also, what I meant was the question whether Edwina Troutt in fact personally witnessed Nora Keane entering a lifeboat or whether they parted on deck prior to Miss Keane entering her boat. They may have parted company shortly after coming up on deck. I am not sure exactly when boat 10 was lowered - there are a few theories regarding the time. I find the aft boats rather difficult to establish when it comes to time and order of lowering.
Part from the fact that there very likely were no second class passengers rescued in any forward boat, boat D held only about 15 people when it was lowered away, which is nowhere near Miss Troutt's estimate of those in her boat. Nor does it comply with her statement that master-at-arms Bailey was in charge of her lifeboat.

According to Bill Wormstedt and Tad Fitch, Collapsible D had:

Twenty occupants as lowered from the ship.

Twenty three occupants after picking up the male "jumpers".

Thirty five occupants by the time it reached the Carpathia after receiving twelve people from Boat Fourteen.

I accept that but Collapsible D was not just any forward lifeboat. It was the very last lifeboat to be properly launched off the Titanic and by then almost all those left on the boat deck would have known that. Sure, by 02:05 am, the time when #D was lowered, some passengers had probably already started making for the apparent 'safety' of the still dry and rising stern. But there could have been a few second class passengers in the vicinity of Collapsible D. IF Nora Keane did depart on Lifeboat #10 and Edwina Troutt was temporarily left behind, the latter would have seen that there were no further lifeboats left to fit to the aft davits and the natural inclination then would have been to move forward. With about 15 minutes between the launches of Lifeboat #10 and Collapsible D, it is not inconceivable that Winnie Troutt ended up near the latter boat in which case, as a woman, she would have been let through the cordon.

For reasons mentioned by Seumas above, Troutt's estimate of the number of people on her lifeboat could be subject to error. Apart from the fact that like most others she would have been tense and concerned at that late stage, we have to consider what stage occupancy she was referring to when she made that estimate. If she had meant after receiving people from Lowe's lifeboat #14, then she would not have been too far off the mark.

My point is that I do not believe any second class passengers moved forward at all, having emerged via the second class stairway near boats 13 and 14 (or thereabouts). Lawrence Beesley stated he saw some ladies who tried to go forward being stopped by crew, if memory serves me right. Miss Troutt never mentions having to go forward in her accounts of the sinking. She simply entered a lifeboat where she was, i. e the aft second class boat deck.

 

[Peter Kyhl]

It was thought in 1912 that the Navratil boys were rescued in boat D, but evidence is actually rather scant; Hugh Woolner is the only source for this and he only mentioned one child - he thought it was one of the Navratil boys, but he did not say he was certain. As far as I know there were no second class passengers rescued forward of the aft lifeboats (how would they have had access to the forward deck?) so chances are they Navratil boys were rescued in an aft lifeboat. As for Edwina Troutt, to me it seems rather clear that she left in boat No. 16, having mentioned master-at-arms Bailey being in charge of her lifeboat. She thought there were 35 or so people in the boat, corresponding closely to the number believed to have left in No. 16 (boat D held only about 15 or so people when it was lowered away). She also said she left at 1.15, which by altered ship's time may have been somewhere between 1.35 and 1.40. Her room mates Nora Keane (possibly No. 10) and Suzie Webber (No. 10) also left from that part of the ship.

When I count the persons on the existing picture of lifeboat D. I count to 30 or 31 certainly not as low as 15-20 people.

 

[Peter Engberg-Klarström]

Yes, boat D took ten or twelve from boat 14 when that boat transferred its passengers. I count 29, by the way.

 

[Arun Vajpey]

I tried to research a bit more into Winnie Troutt's lifeboat and have to admit that PE-K's conjecture that it was #16 could well be correct.

The general figure given is that there were at least 40 people on board Lifeboat #16 when it was lowered but the list here on ET gives only 11 confirmed names and there are no small children among them.

There are a few clues that point to Troutt's boat indeed being Lifeboat #16.

• Her specific mention of Master-at-Arms Bailey being in charge of her boat is the strongest evidence.
• Fellow survivor Adie Wells and her children were also thought to have been rescued on Lifeboat #16. Mrs Wells mentioned that there were a few "babies" on board and one of them could have been the one that Winnie Troutt accepted. She also said that there were between 40 and 50 people on board.
• Mrs Wells also mentioned a newlywed woman on her lifeboat whose husband was not allowed in. It could have been a real married couple, of course, but I wondered if she was alluding to Mrs Elizabeth Wilkinson (who was saved on Lifeboat #16) and her lover companion Harry Faunthorpe. They were travelling as a married couple with Mrs Wilkinson calling herself "Lizzie Faunthorpe".
• Edwina Troutt herself mentioned that Mrs Wilkinson/Faunthorpe was in the same lifeboat as herself.
• Both Wells and Troutt mentioned the officer brandishing a gun but AFAIK, neither said that it was in their lifeboat. They could have been referring to Lowe in Lifeboat #14; he fired along the side of the ship to deter potential rushers. This must have happened moments after Lifeboat #16 started to lower and Lifeboat #14 was about to follow.

The one thing that does not fit in is Troutt's belief that Nora Keane left the Titanic on a boat before her own. It is generally believed that Ms Keane was on Lifeboat #10, launched about half an hour after #16.

 

[Arun Vajpey]

This post is related to Winnie Troutt but in a very indirect way; and I accept that I am stretching the law of probabilities here.

I was discussing First Class passenger Mary Marvin (Mrs Daniel Warner Marvin) in a conversation with another member just now. It is not known on which lifeboat Mrs Marvin was saved and there is very little information about her in most works. But in Walter Lord's book ANTR, Chapter 4 is titled "You go and I'll stay a while"; those were reportedly Dan Marvin's parting words with a blown kiss to his wife Mary Marvin just as she entered the lifeboat.

In Kyrila Scully's lifeboat book she places Mary Marvin in Lifeboat #10, but we felt that unlikely because that lifeboat was swinging away from the Titanic due to the port list by then. I know that we cannot read too much between the lines, but Mary Marvin's entry into the lifeboat seems singularly uneventful - too uneventful IMO for it to have been Lifeboat #10. Furthermore, Scully claims that Lifeboat #10 was launched at 01:20 am whereas Bill Wormstedt's far better researched article has it lowered at 01:50 am, which is now generally accepted.

The fact that Daniel Marvin was denied a place in the lifeboat strongly suggests that it was a port boat that Mary entered. So, we wondered if Mary Marvin was actually in Lifeboat #16, which WAS launched at 01:20 am. If so, Daniel and Mary Marvin could easily have been the "young newlywed couple" near Lifeboat #16 that Adie Wells mentioned - like she said, only the woman was allowed and her husband had to remain on the Titanic's deck and was lost.

If Mary Marvin was indeed on Lifeboat #16, she would be the only known First Class passenger in that boat (although there might have been others). In that case (and I know that I am stretching probabilities here, but don't we all? ) Mrs Marvin could have been the one who told Winnie Troutt about the identity of the hysterical woman with the child on the ship's deck. Troutt supposedly claimed that she saw Bess Allison holding Loraine's hand and screaming as the former sat in her lifeboat.

 

[Peter Engberg-Klarström]

This post is related to Winnie Troutt but in a very indirect way; and I accept that I am stretching the law of probabilities here.

I was discussing First Class passenger Mary Marvin (Mrs Daniel Warner Marvin) in a conversation with another member just now. It is not known on which lifeboat Mrs Marvin was saved and there is very little information about her in most works. But in Walter Lord's book ANTR, Chapter 4 is titled "You go and I'll stay a while"; those were reportedly Dan Marvin's parting words with a blown kiss to his wife Mary Marvin just as she entered the lifeboat.

In Kyrila Scully's lifeboat book she places Mary Marvin in Lifeboat #10, but we felt that unlikely because that lifeboat was swinging away from the Titanic due to the port list by then. I know that we cannot read too much between the lines, but Mary Marvin's entry into the lifeboat seems singularly uneventful - too uneventful IMO for it to have been Lifeboat #10. Furthermore, Scully claims that Lifeboat #10 was launched at 01:20 am whereas Bill Wormstedt's far better researched article has it lowered at 01:50 am, which is now generally accepted.

The fact that Daniel Marvin was denied a place in the lifeboat strongly suggests that it was a port boat that Mary entered. So, we wondered if Mary Marvin was actually in Lifeboat #16, which WAS launched at 01:20 am. If so, Daniel and Mary Marvin could easily have been the "young newlywed couple" near Lifeboat #16 that Adie Wells mentioned - like she said, only the woman was allowed and her husband had to remain on the Titanic's deck and was lost.

If Mary Marvin was indeed on Lifeboat #16, she would be the only known First Class passenger in that boat (although there might have been others). In that case (and I know that I am stretching probabilities here, but don't we all? ) Mrs Marvin could have been the one who told Winnie Troutt about the identity of the hysterical woman with the child on the ship's deck. Troutt supposedly claimed that she saw Bess Allison holding Loraine's hand and screaming as the former sat in her lifeboat.

The only problem here being that there there were very few first class passengers saved in the aft lifeboats (excluding 9 and 10 that were on the border of the first class promenade deck). There were some, but the overwhelming majority of first class passengers stayed in their area, the forward part of the boat deck. Mrs. Marvin's stories do not indicate - as far as I know, that is - that she ever left the forward part of the boat deck.

 

[Michael Shetina]

I want to highlight two pieces of evidence from Winnie Troutt's letters written aboard the Carpathia that I haven't seen mentioned in this thread (unless I've missed them). The first comes from the Tuesday, April 17 letter:

The Titanic was cut in two and was sunk to the second deck when I reached a lifeboat.

If I interpret her words correctly, she's describing the water being around A or B Deck when she reached her lifeboat (though her referencing the ship having been cut in two before her boat left is certainly odd). This definitely suggests a very late boat.

The second comes from the Wednesday, April 18 letter:

I think it wicked to save the single girls, but now that I saved a baby whose mother was in another boat I don’t mind.

The Navratils obviously had no mother aboard. Might the baby in her arms actually have been little Michael Yusuf, who according to his mother Katrin went astray during the loading of a lifeboat? If Katrin was in Collapsible C with a large number of other Syrian/Lebanese passengers, I can see someone certainly taking the baby over to Boat D from there. Senan Moloney's The Irish Aboard Titanic places the Navratil boys in D with Annie Jermyn, Bridget Driscoll, and Mary Kelly. But might they have been rescued with a number of other young Irish women in boat 16? Or in 11 or 13, which have been suggested as possibilities?

These are only indications, and either could be an assumption or an embellishment, but they do suggest Collapsible D as, at the very least, a candidate. Especially given that her time estimates (adjusted to ship's time) generally match Boat D's launch and recovery.

As far as second class passengers moving forward, if I recall, Beesley's mention of second class women being stopped from going forward takes place much earlier in the night before the aft boats were gone. I'd imagine at 1:50 in the morning, it was a different story. We do have evidence of folks moving forward - the Kinks and the Coutts families both somehow ended up in boat 2 while a large number of Syrian/Lebanese and English third class passengers (and perhaps a few Irish if Buckley, Bradley, and Devaney were among them) made it Collapsible C. Plenty of survivor accounts fail to account for individual movements made during the sinking. I don't know that Troutt not specifically stating that she moved forward can be taken as strong evidence that she didn't.

 

[Arun Vajpey]

These are only indications, and either could be an assumption or an embellishment, but they do suggest Collapsible D as, at the very least, a candidate. Especially given that her time estimates (adjusted to ship's time) generally match Boat D's launch and recovery.

Good analysis, even if there is no way to prove it. Obviously, the break-up could not have occurred before Winnie Troutt or anyone else entered a lifeboat but it may just have been her way of putting it across without actually meaning it literally. If Troutt saw the breakup some 13 to 14 minutes after she entered a lifeboat, that would make her wording understandable.........and of course Collapsible D would then definitely be the most likely candidate and one of the Navratil children the "baby" she mentioned. Since Michel Navratil Sr largely kept his children and himself somewhat isolated during the trip, Troutt might not have known that Michel Jr / Edmond had no mother on board.

I have respect for PE-K's diligence in research but do feel that his insistence that no Second Class passenger made it to any forward lifeboat is somewhat too rigid. William Mellors appears to have been in the vicinity of Collapsible A very late into the sinking before he actually got on board from the water and survived. I am still undecided what I think about Anna Hamalainen and her son Wiljo; while I believe PE-K's argument that they were saved on Lifeboat #10 has credibility, I also think the same with W-F-B, who place them in Lifeboat #4. Similarly, Edwina Troutt could also have moved forward at some stage.

 

[Arun Vajpey]

I don't know if we'll ever be able to solve it but according to what I have read so far, the Navratil children were in lifeboat 11.

With apologies to Jason, I have tried but found it very hard to accept that the Navratil boys were in Lifeboat #11 because their father, Michel Navratil Sr, was not saved. As we all know, Murdoch and the others were allowing men to board the starboard lifeboats if there was room after the available women and children had taken their places. Even if Lifeboat #11 was deemed filled to capacity at the time, Michel Navratil Sr could have simply waked a few steps aft and boarded Lifeboat #13 which was even then being loaded (like Ruth Becker did); failing that, there was also Lifeboat #15, which eventually contained more men than women. Someone like Michel Sr who went into so much lengths to make a life for himself and his children does not sound like someone who would have given up on life so easily, especially IF he had every chance to save himself (as he would have had on the starboard side).

Collapsible D however, would have been an entirely different proposition and fit the scenario of the Navratil parting far better because it was launched much later, was on the port side and Wilde and Lightoller were allowing absolutely no men through the cordon into the lifeboat. If Winnie Troutt was indeed on that boat herself, then Edmond Navratil would have been one of the candidates for the 'baby' that she accepted. As'sad Tannus, a rescued baby whose lifeboat was uncertain, is another possibility, especially as it is thought that his mother Thamin Tannus was saved on another lifeboat. Thamin and As'sad were travelling with Bashir Tannus, who was Thamin's brother-in-law but Winnie Troutt and others might have mistaken him for her husband - which in turn fits the 'young parting couple' story.

In any case, in the dark and under such harrowing circumstances, later recollection of events would have been difficult and subject to errors. For example, if Winnie Troutt saw a young couple tearfully bidding farewell on the deck just before boarding her lifeboat and later met just the woman on board the Carpathia, she could have erroneously thought that the other woman had been on the same lifeboat as herself. I am sure that there were several such misconceptions by survivors in their later recollections which would explain the apparent anomalies with some accounts. Therefore as things stand, I have gone back into thinking that Winnie Troutt was rescued on Collapsible D, as were the Navratil children. As mentioned before, I do not believe in the conjecture that no second class passenger got near or into any forward lifeboat even later in the sinking; it just does not make sense.

 

[Jason D. Tiller]

With apologies to Jason, I have tried but found it very hard to accept that the Navratil boys were in Lifeboat #11 because their father, Michel Navratil Sr, was not saved

No apology necessary, Arun! This is how we learn from each other. I've now gone back and re-examined the evidence.

First off, Edith never said it was the Navatril boys; if she did it was made up. She only recalled Trevor Allison in Boat 11. So that statement (I can't locate where I found it at the moment), is incorrect. Both Hugh Woolner and Renee Harris recalled seeing the boys in Boat D. "When biscuits were passed around the boat Woolner recalled feeding some to one of the Navratil boys who had woken up crying."

Archibald Gracie as well, places the children in the latter. So there is little doubt that the children were in fact, in Collapsible D.

I shall now eat humble pie.

 

[Randy Bryan Bigham]

Jason was incorrect about saying the Navratils were in No. 11 and he has kindly explained to me how he was misled by something he had read. Edith Rosenbaum recalled Trevor Allison as he was a First Class baby she may likely have seen aboard ship. He was with his nurse in Boat 11. The Navratils were in Boat D according to Hugh Wooler and Rene Harris, regardless of what Peter thinks. Peter has made several mistakes in his statements about which boat a certain passenger escaped in and I would not ever rely on his calculations. He says Second and Third Class passengers didn't go forward on the Boat Deck, yet he contradicts himself by admitting Philip Zenni, a steerage man, was in Boat 6 early on. I am not currently in touch with Don Lynch but I am one of the ones who urged him to tell his story of Edwina Troutt Mackenzie's related memories of what boat she left in. In short, I believe Mrs. Mackenzie was in Boat D and that the Navratil boys were also there. Peter's theory about Second and Third Class not being in forward boats is incorrect.

 

[Arun Vajpey]

Okay thanks for that. I always thought that PE-K's insistence that no second class passenger reached any of the forward lifeboats was wrong. If it is agreed that the Navtratil boys were in Collapsible D, then the chances are high that Winnie Troutt herself was in the same lifeboat and the baby that she looked after was indeed Edmond Navratil.

Although I also considered As'sad Tannus as another candidate for "Winnie Troutt's baby", it is far more likely that he was with Violet Jessop on Lifeboat #16.