Would the stern section sink if port windows were closed?

[marina_irc]

I think this makes perfect sense. But, if they didn’t realize the ship was critically damaged, I bet they kept steaming to New York. The boiler rooms flooded first, but there was lots of steam pressure. Could have steamed for a while. Wasn’t she found at a different position from what was logged at the time of the collision? May have something to do with the Californian not being able to see the distress flares. Maybe this increased the time for the Carpathia to get there, while causing the Titanic to sink faster. Maybe it would have reduced the severity of tragedy if the ship stopped. The crew not wanting to come across as haphazard in the inquiry. I’d read this book. Definitely more plausible than the Olympic switch scenario.

You are correct, it is more plausible than the Olympic switch theory. That "theory" is pure lunacy.

But that is all I'll say about it. Titanic started releasing steam through the pressure relief stacks about fifteen minutes after the collision. She was never underway after that point.

Murdoch knew what he had just done would bring the Captain. He would not order her to get underway again with the Captain a minute away. This creates a window of less than 15 minutes between the collision and someone realising they weren't going anywhere and ordering steam vented in which they collect themselves, get underway, decide it's a bad idea, and stop again. To put bluntly, Titanic's officers weren't perfect, but they're not the kind of bozos who think it's a brilliant idea to get underway again after striking an iceberg without sounding the damage first. The British Merchant Marine didn't give ships to such people in that era.

 

[cousineddy]

But that is all I'll say about it. Titanic started releasing steam through the pressure relief stacks about fifteen minutes after the collision. She was never underway after that point.

Steam was being released when the evacuation began nearly an hour after the collision. How long does it take to dump the pressure. And I think it is released by a pressure relief valve when there is no demand for steam. So, they could have stopped 45 min after the collision to evacuate which triggered the steam release.

 

[Scott Mills]

You are correct, it is more plausible than the Olympic switch theory. That "theory" is pure lunacy.

But that is all I'll say about it. Titanic started releasing steam through the pressure relief stacks about fifteen minutes after the collision. She was never underway after that point.

Murdoch knew what he had just done would bring the Captain. He would not order her to get underway again with the Captain a minute away. This creates a window of less than 15 minutes between the collision and someone realising they weren't going anywhere and ordering steam vented in which they collect themselves, get underway, decide it's a bad idea, and stop again. To put bluntly, Titanic's officers weren't perfect, but they're not the kind of bozos who think it's a brilliant idea to get underway again after striking an iceberg without sounding the damage first. The British Merchant Marine didn't give ships to such people in that era.

No she did not. It was an hour after the collision when the decision to evacuate had been made that steam was released.

Also, of course the most prudent thing to do would be to have fully ascertained the damage to the hull before making way at all, which they absolutely did not do even if the story told at both inquiries was 100% accurate. Having made way, unless it was in reverse, for any length of time prior to knowing the full damage to the ship would have demonstrated, even in 1912, that Titanic's crew did not behave in a prudent manner at all; and that the actions of the crew could have accelerated the sinking of the ship.

Continuing to make way for even 20 minutes post collision would have been a pretty damn good excuse for doing what Lightoller himself admitted the surviving officers did during the inquiries, which was to apply a "bit of a whitewash."

 

[Samuel Halpern]

But that is all I'll say about it. Titanic started releasing steam through the pressure relief stacks about fifteen minutes after the collision. She was never underway after that point.

Agree. There was also an order to draw the fires in the furnaces in forward boiler rooms which came soon after the lights came back on in the stokeholds.
As for the order to put people into the boats and send them down to the sea below, that came about 45 minutes after the collision.

 

[marina_irc]

No she did not. It was an hour after the collision when the decision to evacuate had been made that steam was released.

Also, of course the most prudent thing to do would be to have fully ascertained the damage to the hull before making way at all, which they absolutely did not do even if the story told at both inquiries was 100% accurate. Having made way, unless it was in reverse, for any length of time prior to knowing the full damage to the ship would have demonstrated, even in 1912, that Titanic's crew did not behave in a prudent manner at all; and that the actions of the crew could have accelerated the sinking of the ship.

Continuing to make way for even 20 minutes post collision would have been a pretty damn good excuse for doing what Lightoller himself admitted the surviving officers did during the inquiries, which was to apply a "bit of a whitewash."

The quotes from survivors and the timing of the beginning of high-pressure steam release match up to 15 - 20 minutes after the impact with the berg; twenty minutes at the outside. Steam would have had to have been released sooner than an hour from the collision, or else it would have never been released at all.

The release of steam is because the thermal mass of the fires is substantial, and you must cool that thermal mass. The only way to do so is by continuing to feed water into the boilers, which continues to generate steam. The steam must do something. It can either generate work by turning engines -- propulsion engines, pumps, dynamos, but regardless engines -- or it must generate pressure. The engineers on Titanic would know that pressure -- they produce the power, they control the power, they use the power. They live the pressure of that steam system. No matter what the navigating officers on the bridge wanted to do, steam would be released if they did not get underway again. It would either be released voluntarily, or it would be released involuntarily, through safety pressure relief valves. And the engineering crew would almost certainly vent steam whether or not they had orders to keep the PRVs from lifting. That would be adding another Situation to an already serious situation. I've run pressure critical systems where the PRVs lifting mean we're releasing toxic gas to the atmosphere. Once the valves lift, they have to be replaced; they're single use. I suspect that was probably not true of Titanic's, I haven't researched her steam arrangements in that detail, but it's still a serious matter, serious enough to act without clear orders from the top and be confident in your decision.

Anyway, while there is a lot of thermal mass, you are losing that thermal mass fairly quickly, so the period of risk is low. But the stokehold is not like a modern engine, or one of the electrical compressors in the industrial plants I've controlled. You cannot just ramp up and down the power in a few minutes at most. The power is produced by controlling the thermal mass of combustion in the boilers. If Titanic's navigating officers called for steam, you must order the stokers to begin stoking again. The engine order comes down and maybe it's just ahead slow, but if you run the engines without adding more coal, bringing up your combustion rate again, your thermal mass will rapidly decline. Direct propulsion by use of the steam in the reciprocating engines is by far the largest consumer on Titanic. You must resume stoking.

There is no evidence that happened in the forward boiler rooms.

Drawing down the fires was directly related to quickly reducing the thermal mass to help reduce steam pressure, down to levels suitable for maintaining the pumps and dynamos only. Once you start doing that, however, it then would take a lot of time to countermand the order and bring steam back up. Again, you are ultimately building that power on the backs of men--the stokers. There is a lag in the system quite unlike anything in the modern world. This is not the instantaneous power of a modern electrically driven screw compressor, or a hydroelectric turbine responding to the opening of the sluice-gates. It is not even the power of later boilers, oil fired, responding to an electric pump precisely delivering oil at multiple points inside the boiler. You must carefully coordinate between physical orders to people and monitoring of steam pressure and plan and predict for loads minutes in advance.

The time of maximum risk from steam pressure would be immediately after the ship struck the berg, because she was traveling at full speed, and therefore was generating maximum steam pressure and volume. Without that volume being used, then the pressure will continue to increase ... You must vent or it will vent for you, one way or another.

Ordering ahead slow would certainly be one way of using that power. But again, the engineers cannot just hold masses of power in reserve. They must reduce it. That means drawing down the fires. Immediately.

At this point, if you've gone ahead slow, and you're drawing down the fires from running at speed, then fast forward to an hour after the collision. Where is the steam coming from? Venting would have been short to nonexistent. A ship's power increases with very nearly the square of her speed; speed is a ruthless consumer of energy in a ship. But power is proportional to steam being generated! So if you are going ahead-slow and using one quarter or one sixth of your maximum horsepower to the engines, you're also using one-fourth to one-sixth of your steam generation capacity, and the need to vent would have been effectively nonexistent.

So your proposed timing for the venting of steam can actually only make sense if someone ordered full ahead for forty-five minutes after the collision. Everyone would have remembered that; it could not have been hidden.

But there's no mention of it.

 

[Zirnitra]

anyway stern could not stay long on the water because shell plating was damaged and theres another problem - engine room is open to sea,heavy engines pull stern down and now water enter engine room,even with all portholes on port side closed and so all windows on port side, there was yno hope because of opened cabins that are open to sea,corridors,staircases,there water has plenty ways to enter and negate chance for titanic stern to stay afloat. in best case scenario it would stay up one hour,no longer.

we do not know if watertight doors were closed at time of breakup between engine room and turbine room and between boiler room 2 and 3,in fact entering water would still trigger the float system and close the doors because these parts were still functional not dependant on steam or electricity.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
about restarting engines on slow ahead or half ahead and venting steam.. well we will never know for how long engines did run because we have not eoungh evidence for how long they did,even when you release steam you lose pressure slowly not instantly,engines to run slow ahead do not need full power so it was possible (very low chance) they did go beyond midnight as lifeboats were launched at 00:40 i wouldnt be suprised if it was slow ahead up to 00:20 (probably unrealistic but still gives thinking) also lifeboats cannot be launched when engines still are running,one way or another if engines were stopped at 00:00 lifeboats would be launched as soon as possible without waiting those 40 minutes to do.

 

[Scott Mills]

The quotes from survivors and the timing of the beginning of high-pressure steam release match up to 15 - 20 minutes after the impact with the berg; twenty minutes at the outside. Steam would have had to have been released sooner than an hour from the collision, or else it would have never been released at all.

The release of steam is because the thermal mass of the fires is substantial, and you must cool that thermal mass. The only way to do so is by continuing to feed water into the boilers, which continues to generate steam. The steam must do something. It can either generate work by turning engines -- propulsion engines, pumps, dynamos, but regardless engines -- or it must generate pressure. The engineers on Titanic would know that pressure -- they produce the power, they control the power, they use the power. They live the pressure of that steam system. No matter what the navigating officers on the bridge wanted to do, steam would be released if they did not get underway again. It would either be released voluntarily, or it would be released involuntarily, through safety pressure relief valves. And the engineering crew would almost certainly vent steam whether or not they had orders to keep the PRVs from lifting. That would be adding another Situation to an already serious situation. I've run pressure critical systems where the PRVs lifting mean we're releasing toxic gas to the atmosphere. Once the valves lift, they have to be replaced; they're single use. I suspect that was probably not true of Titanic's, I haven't researched her steam arrangements in that detail, but it's still a serious matter, serious enough to act without clear orders from the top and be confident in your decision.

Anyway, while there is a lot of thermal mass, you are losing that thermal mass fairly quickly, so the period of risk is low. But the stokehold is not like a modern engine, or one of the electrical compressors in the industrial plants I've controlled. You cannot just ramp up and down the power in a few minutes at most. The power is produced by controlling the thermal mass of combustion in the boilers. If Titanic's navigating officers called for steam, you must order the stokers to begin stoking again. The engine order comes down and maybe it's just ahead slow, but if you run the engines without adding more coal, bringing up your combustion rate again, your thermal mass will rapidly decline. Direct propulsion by use of the steam in the reciprocating engines is by far the largest consumer on Titanic. You must resume stoking.

There is no evidence that happened in the forward boiler rooms.

Drawing down the fires was directly related to quickly reducing the thermal mass to help reduce steam pressure, down to levels suitable for maintaining the pumps and dynamos only. Once you start doing that, however, it then would take a lot of time to countermand the order and bring steam back up. Again, you are ultimately building that power on the backs of men--the stokers. There is a lag in the system quite unlike anything in the modern world. This is not the instantaneous power of a modern electrically driven screw compressor, or a hydroelectric turbine responding to the opening of the sluice-gates. It is not even the power of later boilers, oil fired, responding to an electric pump precisely delivering oil at multiple points inside the boiler. You must carefully coordinate between physical orders to people and monitoring of steam pressure and plan and predict for loads minutes in advance.

The time of maximum risk from steam pressure would be immediately after the ship struck the berg, because she was traveling at full speed, and therefore was generating maximum steam pressure and volume. Without that volume being used, then the pressure will continue to increase ... You must vent or it will vent for you, one way or another.

Ordering ahead slow would certainly be one way of using that power. But again, the engineers cannot just hold masses of power in reserve. They must reduce it. That means drawing down the fires. Immediately.

At this point, if you've gone ahead slow, and you're drawing down the fires from running at speed, then fast forward to an hour after the collision. Where is the steam coming from? Venting would have been short to nonexistent. A ship's power increases with very nearly the square of her speed; speed is a ruthless consumer of energy in a ship. But power is proportional to steam being generated! So if you are going ahead-slow and using one quarter or one sixth of your maximum horsepower to the engines, you're also using one-fourth to one-sixth of your steam generation capacity, and the need to vent would have been effectively nonexistent.

So your proposed timing for the venting of steam can actually only make sense if someone ordered full ahead for forty-five minutes after the collision. Everyone would have remembered that; it could not have been hidden.

But there's no mention of it.

Welcome back to a year old conversation.

I think your analysis seems cogent, and I am far from an expert on the operation of steam engines. My belief is that Titanic made way for a considerable period of time for foundering ship with damage to her bows. What the exact amount of time was, I do not know; however I am fairly certain that it was for a minimum of 15 minutes and a maximum of between 30 and 40 minutes.

This forward progress would have been at either slow-ahead or half-ahead; however, if the total time Titanic steamed ahead after the collision, and the purpose of that forward progress, can be questioned, the fact that she did make way again after her collision with the ice is absolutely certain.

Digging through my notes, and some old posts on these forums you have a number of conflicting statements amongst the crew given during the inquiries. For example...

Trimmer Thomas Dillon, who was in Titanic's engine room at the time of the collision reports seeing the following orders on the engine telegraph:

3720. Was anything done to the engines? Did they stop or did they go on?
- They stopped.

3721. Was that immediately after you felt the shock or some little time after?
- About a minute and a half.

3722. Did they continue stopped or did they go on again after that?
- They went slow astern.

3723. How long were they stopped for before they began to go slow astern?
- About half a minute.

3724. For how long did they go slow astern?
- About two minutes.

3725. Two or three did you say?
- Two minutes.

3726. And then did they stop again?
- Yes.

3727. And did they go on again after that?
- They went ahead again.

3728. For how long?
- For about two minutes.

3729. Then did they stop the boat after that?
- Yes.

Greaser Fred Scott who was in the turbine room at the time of the collision reported seeing very different orders on the telegraph:

The Commissioner: You remember the order to stop?

Fred Scott: Yes.

The Commissioner: That, I suppose, was obeyed instantaneously by the men in the engine room?

Fred Scott: Yes.

The Commissioner: The next order was "Slow ahead"?

Fred Scott: Yes.

The Commissioner: Now, what time elapsed between the order to stop and the order to slow ahead?

Fred Scott: About 10 minutes.

And in Walter Lord's The Night Lives On he records Fred Scott's recollections as:

STOP ENGINES -Wait 15-
SLOW AHEAD -wait 10-
STOP ENGINES-wait 5-
SLOW ASTERN-wait 5-
STOP ENGINES

Then there is quartermaster Alfred Olliver who said the following at the US Senate inquiry:

Senator Burton: Was she (Titanic) backed (ordered engines astern)?

Mr. Olliver: Not whilst I was on the bridge. But, whilst on the bridge she went ahead, after she struck. She went half speed ahead.

Senator Burton: The engines went half speed ahead, or the ship?

Mr. Olliver: Half speed ahead, after she hit the ice.

Senator Burton: Who gave the order?

Mr. Olliver: The captain telegraphed half speed ahead.

I would also submit to you that a number of surviving passengers reported the resumption of the forward momentum of the ship. Archibald Gracie, for example, reported coming out onto deck 15 minutes after the collision and "promenading into the wind," which would have been an impossibility on that night in 1912 had Titanic not been making way.

First class passenger C.E. Henry Stengel testified to the following at the US Senate Inquiry:

Senator Smith: How long after the impact was it before the engines were stopped?

Mr. Stengel: A very few minutes.

Senator Smith: Give the number of minutes, if you can. You are accustomed to machinery and matters of this kind.

Mr. Stengel: I should say two or three minutes, and then they started again just slightly; just started to move again. I do not know why; whether they were backing off, or not. I do not know. I hardly thought they were backing off, because there was not much vibration of the ship.

Finally, Lawrence Beesely wrote in his book The Loss of SS Titanic that Titanic "now resumed her course, moving very slowly through the water with a little white line of foam on each side. I think we were all glad to see this: it seemed better than standing still...we were much pleased to hear the engines throbbing down below and to know we were making some headway..." You do not get any stronger of a statement than this--Titanic resumed her course.

All of which is to say, it is really beyond doubt that the engines were put ahead after the collision.

 

[Zirnitra]

titanic was not first ship that started engines after collision or any other hull dmaage causing water to go inside. britannic did go half ahead or full ahead after hitting mine and went down within 55 minutes, lusitania wnet down within 18-20 minutes and in case of lusitania they could not give order to engines all stop because i think telegraphs were damaged by torpedo damage and main steam line was destroyed so engines stopped on their own once all pressure was lost.

in case of titanic even if she went ahead slow for 40 minutes after collision, that did not imcrease the flood rate at all but i am thinking that ismay forced captain Smith to go ahead slow/ahead half because he was upsed about stopping in middle of ocean and passengers would be angry and demand refund. im 90% sure that titanic was moving ahead slow for about 15-20 minutes after collision. after looking at old maps and titanic position the forward motion would not last longer so much unless the current drifted the ship.. also to move ship at very low speed you dont need to have all boilers working. for full ahead you need to have kicked in 19-20 boilers so for slow ahead it could be 5 or 8 boilers so dumping steam was not meaning "game over" but to prevent safety valves blowing off,that could be "game over" as these valves need to be replaced,once they lift up they cannot be closed again.

ilets go back to britannic,what happens if you lower boats with still running engines? if propellers are exposed then chop chop chop,if not then lifeboats would still hit the ship hull because moving ship would pull them in.the mine detonation caused massive hull damage and jammed watertight doors in their door frames so some watertight doors could not be lowered. it could withstand flooding of 6 sections but motionless,bridge would be flooded but ship would not sink,sadly opened portholes did the job and britannic went down.

going back to titanic.

 

[Scott Mills]

titanic was not first ship that started engines after collision or any other hull dmaage causing water to go inside. britannic did go half ahead or full ahead after hitting mine and went down within 55 minutes, lusitania wnet down within 18-20 minutes and in case of lusitania they could not give order to engines all stop because i think telegraphs were damaged by torpedo damage and main steam line was destroyed so engines stopped on their own once all pressure was lost.

Those are cases that are a bit different than Titanic. As you point out, in the case of Lusitania both the damage caused to the ship from being torpedoed and the rapidity at which Lusitania foundered really prevented engine orders from being implementable. The case of Britannic is a bit more straight forward than that of Titanic. This is because Britannic was serving in a war zone, and while it was unclear what caused the damage to Britannic Commodore Bartlett immediately knew that Britannic's damage was serious and catastrophic; however, he also knew that Britannic might be saved if he could beach her on the island of Kea, which visible to Britannic's starboard. On Titanic in the immediate aftermath of the collision there was no reason for her crew to suspect Titanic had been as seriously damaged as she was, and the true nature of Titanic's damage was not ascertained for some time post collision.

in case of titanic even if she went ahead slow for 40 minutes after collision, that did not imcrease the flood rate at all but i am thinking that ismay forced captain Smith to go ahead slow/ahead half because he was upsed about stopping in middle of ocean and passengers would be angry and demand refund. im 90% sure that titanic was moving ahead slow for about 15-20 minutes after collision.

This is not actually the case. Without going into great detail about the physics and the engineering, moving a ship forward with damage to her bows forces water to enter the hull at a much quicker rate than were the ship to simply stop--backing the ship up in this circumstance would actually have the opposite effect, but that is neither here nor there.

This would have been known to the crew of Titanic and the engineering profession in 1912. Thanks to information from the late community member David G. Brown, I can say with relative certainty that 34 years before the loss of Titanic, naval architect Robert Froude published his experiments that showed concretely that a ship with damage to the bows, when steamed ahead, would hasten its sinking when compared to a ship with similar damage that were left dead in the water.

As for the answer to the question of why Titanic may have resumed making way... you will have to forgive me, because the nature of my interest in and the robustness of my research on Titanic comes in phases, so it has been some years since I really dug into this. Let me just say I find the late David G. Brown's analysis of this to be, while highly circumstantial, very cogent.

I think the most likely scenario went something like this. After Titanic struck ice the true extent of the damage to her hull was unknown to the ships officers for some time--between 30 and 45 minutes. What they did know, however, is that the ships carpenter after sounding the ship would have reported that Titanic was taking on water. In addition, they would have received piecemeal reports of flooding in the forward hull.

Taken individually, these reports would have told the officers Titanic was seriously damaged, but not in danger of foundering. Given the fact the ship was damaged, Smith and Titanic's senior officers, quite possibly under the influence of a suggestion put forward by Ismay, believe the damage is serious enough that Titanic ought to make for the closest port capable of handling Titanic. This port would have been Halifax.

Having quickly made this decision, partial speed would be put on Titanic's engines as she resumes making way not for New York, but for Halifax. This is the point that Smith, Andrews, and Wilde begin their attempt to get a complete damage assessment. During this time Boiler Room 5, which was mostly dry for the first 30 or so minutes, is suddenly overwhelmed with water--the true nature of the damage to Boiler Room 5 is one of the last great mysteries of Titanic for me, and had Cameron managed to get that ROV into the boiler room a lot of questions would have been answered.

In any case, at the conclusion of the tour of Titanic's damaged spaces Andrews and Titanic's senior officers realize that Titanic is actually going to founder. The ship is then stopped, the boats uncovered, and the drama of Titanic's evacuation plays out.

Evidence for Halifax as a destination for Titanic is, again, circumstantial; and it boils down to White Star Line's New York office actually chartering multiple trains for the purposes of picking up passengers in Halifax. Here one needs to ask themselves whether or not it makes more sense that a corporate entity like White Star Line would take this action based on completely unsubstantiated rumors from 'somewhere' (the famous news article reporting Titanic heading for Halifax relied on this action taken by White Star's New York office,) or that they would take such action if they were told by someone on Titanic (for example the managing director of the line) that Titanic was damaged and headed to Halifax.

It is also worth noting that, at least according to Titanic survivor Edith Rosenbaum--Edith was a first class passenger who later told Walter Lord she was the mistress of Ismay--a 'rumor' Titanic was headed to Halifax was also present onboard Titanic on the morning of April 15.

Now it could be that White Star Line's New York office came across a rumor from somewhere--origin unknown today--that Titanic was headed for Halifax that had no basis in reality and then unilaterally decided to charter boat trains in Halifax to pick up Titanic's passengers based on that rumor; and it could be that Edith Rosenbaum's memory was faulty, or that a rumor that Titanic was headed to Halifax developed and spread aboard Titanic that was completely independent of the one that motivated White Star Line's decision to charter those trains.

For me personally though, Occam's razor is pretty sharp, and it seems to me the most likely explanation is not the one involving the simultaneous development of two separate Halifax rumors and a corporate entity acting outside of its nature and taking the time, as well as spending the resources, on chartering trains at a time where all information on Titanic's current condition and disposition ought to be unsubstantiated rumor.

 

[Zirnitra]

i started thinking about the stern section after breakup again. i know the weight of engines pulled part of stern in,if whole engines would break free and fell off the weight loss would cause stern to pop out of water and fall on its side and sink anyway maybe slower because there was not pulling force from heavy engines as they were gone..

but we know that only first forward cylinders broke off but there is something interessing, on remaining two visible cylinders,one of them has puncture damage,like something did penetrate the cylinder during the break up or after break up this could give clue that when keel deformed upwards and hull started breaking from top to bottom hull broke in two but shear strakes held it together,weight of engines pull the stern deeper into water and it hits piece of hull from not yet submerged bow section and that thing stabs cylinder... unless that cylinder was punctured during one of titanic expeditions?

stern had now massive port list water clearly flooded the engine room because breakup disintegrated the bulkhead and water could freely enter engine room, we dont know if water freely was able to enter turbine room or not while on wreck there was probably found that watertight door between engines and turbine room was closed,it may have closed on contact with water because float system was mechanical,not electric. we know that these doors remained open when engineers tried to connect large hoses from engine rooms to pumps and theres probably no evidence these doors were closed again or they did it?

water could flood stern section not only throught the engine room to turbine room, there was some open corridors and those had ways to cabins and sush, and few cabins had open portholes,these cabins would flood and if these cabins had their doors open then water could spill out and if there was other open cabins then would flood next next next until all are flooded. titanic stern would never floats even if breakup looked like knife cut.

 

[Scott Mills]

i started thinking about the stern section after breakup again. i know the weight of engines pulled part of stern in,if whole engines would break free and fell off the weight loss would cause stern to pop out of water and fall on its side and sink anyway maybe slower because there was not pulling force from heavy engines as they were gone..

but we know that only first forward cylinders broke off but there is something interessing, on remaining two visible cylinders,one of them has puncture damage,like something did penetrate the cylinder during the break up or after break up this could give clue that when keel deformed upwards and hull started breaking from top to bottom hull broke in two but shear strakes held it together,weight of engines pull the stern deeper into water and it hits piece of hull from not yet submerged bow section and that thing stabs cylinder... unless that cylinder was punctured during one of titanic expeditions?

stern had now massive port list water clearly flooded the engine room because breakup disintegrated the bulkhead and water could freely enter engine room, we dont know if water freely was able to enter turbine room or not while on wreck there was probably found that watertight door between engines and turbine room was closed,it may have closed on contact with water because float system was mechanical,not electric. we know that these doors remained open when engineers tried to connect large hoses from engine rooms to pumps and theres probably no evidence these doors were closed again or they did it?

water could flood stern section not only throught the engine room to turbine room, there was some open corridors and those had ways to cabins and sush, and few cabins had open portholes,these cabins would flood and if these cabins had their doors open then water could spill out and if there was other open cabins then would flood next next next until all are flooded. titanic stern would never floats even if breakup looked like knife cut.

Well I think it is worth pointing out that--even though I do not think it mattered due to the failure of the keel--that we do know that the watertight doors from the engine room forward to Boiler Room 4 (and maybe into Boiler Room 5 in the early stages) were re-opened to run pumps forward and to allow the engineering crew to move forward towards that damage without having to climb up and utilize Scotland Road.

What I am unsure of is whether or not, after they had been re-opened, any of those doors were re-closed; or if, after having been closed from the bridge and re-opened manually, if the automated system that would close the doors via floats still worked and would have closed those doors automatically as those spaces flooded. Someone with more expertise than I on the technical details of those doors and how they operated ought to know, and this is the perfect community to find such a person.

 

[Samuel Halpern]

if the automated system that would close the doors via floats still worked and would have closed those doors automatically as those spaces flooded.

Probably.

 

[Zirnitra]

they did run hoses throught those compartments,you dont want close watertight doors while hoses are still throught them,you either remove them after failed pumping attempt to close doors or leave them opened. we know that for some time water in boiler room 5 was stopped.

on wreck site theres sufficient evidence that watertight door between boiler room 2 and 3 was closed at some point, either manually or triggered by float system,same wall was found in engine room but they could not determine if it was watertight doors or rusticles blocked the passage.

im wondering if they found closed watertight doors on other compartments during other older expeditions?

 

[Scott Mills]

they did run hoses throught those compartments,you dont want close watertight doors while hoses are still throught them,you either remove them after failed pumping attempt to close doors or leave them opened. we know that for some time water in boiler room 5 was stopped.

on wreck site theres sufficient evidence that watertight door between boiler room 2 and 3 was closed at some point, either manually or triggered by float system,same wall was found in engine room but they could not determine if it was watertight doors or rusticles blocked the passage.

im wondering if they found closed watertight doors on other compartments during other older expeditions?

They have certainly found manually closed watertight doors. In fact, as I recall Jim Cameron was prevented from getting an ROV into the swimming pool from the Turkish Bath due to a watertight door that would have been closed by hand.

 

[Samuel Halpern]

they did run hoses through those compartments

What was said was that they carried hoses from the aft sections to the forward section by carrying them through the opened WTDs. That does not mean they left hose across the doors. If they did, it would have been in the forward part of the ship.