In light of the many recent incidents, the wedding not withstanding, im wondering this today. If international communities were able to band together and act as a unified front, and forever declared the wreck site off limits to all, who would be in favor of it? I dont just mean to weddings and that type of nonse either, im talking the scientific community and everyone. It would be interesting to see the reactions if such a thing ever took place. I choose to hold my opinion until others have spoken, but id be interested in hearing the thoughts of others
Should The Wreck Site Be Declared Off Limits
- Thread starter steve b
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Brandon Whited
Member
Hello Steve,
I think "look but don't touch" expeditions are no problem. But when it comes to expeditions wishing to recover items, I'm both for them and against them at the same time. So basically, as far as the wreck being off limits goes, I'm undecided. Although there basically isn't much left down there to take or harm.
Cheers,
-B.W.
I think "look but don't touch" expeditions are no problem. But when it comes to expeditions wishing to recover items, I'm both for them and against them at the same time. So basically, as far as the wreck being off limits goes, I'm undecided. Although there basically isn't much left down there to take or harm.
Cheers,
-B.W.
Kyrila Scully
Member
I'm not at home right now, so I don't have access to the article, but I just got the new National Geographic which states that NOAA (???) has just managed to get an international decree on the sanctity of the Titanic and similar wreck sites to protect what is left. When I get home, I'll try to remember to post the article in its entirety. It was very encouraging, even if it is a task that will be hard to enforce. Apparently they were motivated to act by a salvage company that "swept" the wreckage for 5,000 pieces of artifacts. Too little too late, but at least someone is trying to do something.
Kyrila
Kyrila
Jan C. Nielsen
Member
Kyrila,
I saw that article too, but as I recall it only stated that there were proposed regulations, nothing final. Those controls have been in the works for many years. Further, RMS Titanic Inc. will challenge them in court, when they are enacted. A previous lawsuit was dismissed because it was not yet ripe. The United States District Court in Norfolk is the forum. In previous statements to the press, the district judge presiding over the case indicated that he would be inclined to rule in RMS Titanic's favor, because of the company's extensive investment in the salvage operation.
I saw that article too, but as I recall it only stated that there were proposed regulations, nothing final. Those controls have been in the works for many years. Further, RMS Titanic Inc. will challenge them in court, when they are enacted. A previous lawsuit was dismissed because it was not yet ripe. The United States District Court in Norfolk is the forum. In previous statements to the press, the district judge presiding over the case indicated that he would be inclined to rule in RMS Titanic's favor, because of the company's extensive investment in the salvage operation.
Michael H. Standart
Member
When you get right down to it, the real problem if any such could be enacted is enforcement. With the wreck clearly in international waters, who would have jurisdiction???
I'm rather ambivalent about this in any event. Scientific investigation...which I strongly favor...requires dives, exploration, and sometimes recovery of certain artifacts. Otherwise, I just wish that the wreck would be left alone.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
I'm rather ambivalent about this in any event. Scientific investigation...which I strongly favor...requires dives, exploration, and sometimes recovery of certain artifacts. Otherwise, I just wish that the wreck would be left alone.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Im in agreement Micheal, but im wondering if science can possibly teach us at this point of the game. I mean if they can so be it. But where the problem would come in in allowing science to be the only ones allowed, then you would have the other groups screaming bloody murder how they should have access as well. If it came down to a choice having them included so these vultures could continue to try and shake every last penny out of this, or whether it was a choice of excluding everybody, science included, acess to the wreck, well, if it finally means giving those poor 1500 souls final and un interrupted peace and eternal sleep, then theres no choice to make. In the final analysis, the rights of those who perrished there have to outweigh our need to learn..I think they deserve that final peace. But hey thats just my 2 cents
Mark Taylor
Member
Re: Proposed Titanic Treaty
The treaty has been signed, as far as I know, but it has not been submitted to the Senate for ratification. The proposed guidelines are posted up at my site, titanicdiscuss.org (in the salvage section) so you can read them there.
As was previously noted, RMS Titanic will challenge if and when the enabling legislation is passed.
The treaty has been signed, as far as I know, but it has not been submitted to the Senate for ratification. The proposed guidelines are posted up at my site, titanicdiscuss.org (in the salvage section) so you can read them there.
As was previously noted, RMS Titanic will challenge if and when the enabling legislation is passed.
Michael H. Standart
Member
Oh I'm confident that science can teach us quite a bit. Just on the technical aspects alone, there are a lot of unknowns. Plenty of theories, but just be going through this site alone, it's all too obvious that each answer seems to breed new questions. I'd like to see some of the mysteries solved once and for all if possible.
As to those other groups screaming bloody murder, I'm afraid you may be right.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
As to those other groups screaming bloody murder, I'm afraid you may be right.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Kyrila Scully
Member
Here's the paragraph in its entirety as promised:
FROM NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC * August, 2001; Geographica page 9. "Sinking the Salvagers"
"In the summer of 2000 a salvage company using high-tech equipment scoured the crumbling Titanic for a new haul of valuables and other artifacts--they had already recovered some 5,000 objects. Now international guidelines proposed by the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration ban the sale of such artifacts and limit salvage. Like many lost ships, the Titanic, says NOAA, is more than just a wreck; it is 'a maritime memorial, a grave site and an underwater museum and laboratory.'"
For your consideration,
Kyrila
FROM NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC * August, 2001; Geographica page 9. "Sinking the Salvagers"
"In the summer of 2000 a salvage company using high-tech equipment scoured the crumbling Titanic for a new haul of valuables and other artifacts--they had already recovered some 5,000 objects. Now international guidelines proposed by the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration ban the sale of such artifacts and limit salvage. Like many lost ships, the Titanic, says NOAA, is more than just a wreck; it is 'a maritime memorial, a grave site and an underwater museum and laboratory.'"
For your consideration,
Kyrila
Kris Muhvic
Member
Good day to all- I have to admit I'm quite ignorant of what I want to say here, but this thread triggerd something that I want to share. So, please forgive me if I sound a bit unsure...
I live in Michigan, surrounded by the Great Lakes, and from my understanding there are strict laws, regulations etc. when it comes to the lake wrecks. Exploration is one thing: but it is only that. The thing that sticks out in my mind is the joint U.S.-Canadian Law that Forbids any salvage, and even photography, of a wreck if any human remains are present.
( Now let me explain something- The lakes are fresh-water, cold, and the pressure is different from the oceans. I don't know all the dynamics, but it is not uncommon, evidently, to witness remains perfectly preserved on wrecks even after 70+ years. Hence the laws).
I realize I might be comparing apples to oranges here, but if this is the case on the lakes, I wonder if it might set up some kind of precedant, even on International waters?
Again, I may be just confusing matters, it's just something I felt a need to say-
Thanks!
Kris
I live in Michigan, surrounded by the Great Lakes, and from my understanding there are strict laws, regulations etc. when it comes to the lake wrecks. Exploration is one thing: but it is only that. The thing that sticks out in my mind is the joint U.S.-Canadian Law that Forbids any salvage, and even photography, of a wreck if any human remains are present.
( Now let me explain something- The lakes are fresh-water, cold, and the pressure is different from the oceans. I don't know all the dynamics, but it is not uncommon, evidently, to witness remains perfectly preserved on wrecks even after 70+ years. Hence the laws).
I realize I might be comparing apples to oranges here, but if this is the case on the lakes, I wonder if it might set up some kind of precedant, even on International waters?
Again, I may be just confusing matters, it's just something I felt a need to say-
Thanks!
Kris
Kris, just curious, but do you know if that had anything at all to do with the Edmund Fitzgerald? For some reason i get the distinct impression that it must have. But ill stay true to my belief, i think it is high time the remains of those 1500 people take priority here, and theyre right to a peaceful final resting place. I know that comes with a price sadly, because if we do that, then we also declare science to be hands off and lose the chance to learn more valuable information as Micheal rightly points out.But im also of the belief that you have to remember why science does what it does too. I though its main goal was to help us understand who we are and respect the value of human life. If that is the case then the lives of those whos were lost on that sad night shouild take precedence over our need to learn. Hope that opinion doesnt sound stupid or shortsighted or whatever, but its how i feel. In some weird way it sems as though, sadly, those lives were never respected. They were just an afterthought to those who went seeking relics and artifacts in hopes of cashing them, in for major money. And that is the saddest crime there is. Respectfully and God bless. Steve
Dan Cherry
Member
Steve and Kris,
Kris, you make a good point. Perhaps that because of the preservation of bodies at wreck sites on the Great Lakes, it's a more visible reminder that wreck sites are indeed grave yards. I don't know if the Fitzgerald has set a precedence, but it makes good sense. I do not believe further explorations of the Edmund Fitzgerald are even permitted, especially since they found the one body under a piece of wreckage off the port bow. It was a chilling reminder that though wrecks can be fascinating in their own right, they are still grave yards and should be treated as such. The recovery of the ship's bell and its replacement with a memorial bell, I feel, was a proper action to remember the crew of the Fitz.
Kris, you make a good point. Perhaps that because of the preservation of bodies at wreck sites on the Great Lakes, it's a more visible reminder that wreck sites are indeed grave yards. I don't know if the Fitzgerald has set a precedence, but it makes good sense. I do not believe further explorations of the Edmund Fitzgerald are even permitted, especially since they found the one body under a piece of wreckage off the port bow. It was a chilling reminder that though wrecks can be fascinating in their own right, they are still grave yards and should be treated as such. The recovery of the ship's bell and its replacement with a memorial bell, I feel, was a proper action to remember the crew of the Fitz.
Chris Dohany
Member
Steve,
I believe you are correct, the legislation was set in motion when a body was discovered and photographed lying off the Fitzgerald's bow. The expedition leader received much criticism when plans were made known for the images to be published. Prior to this I recall documentaries freely showing human remains aboard other lake wrecks.
I believe you are correct, the legislation was set in motion when a body was discovered and photographed lying off the Fitzgerald's bow. The expedition leader received much criticism when plans were made known for the images to be published. Prior to this I recall documentaries freely showing human remains aboard other lake wrecks.
Kris Muhvic
Member
Hello All-
First off, to Dan, and I believe Chris answered your question regarding if Fitzgerald, and the knowledge we gained from the wreck, put the current laws in motion. I admit, my above statements were based on a multitude of articles I came across in the papers during the 25th anniversary of the sinking, and with the memorial services held at the Mariner's Church in Detroit (I'm closer to Detroit than Lake Superior!)made the press, commentaries, etc. (there was even talk of a film being made of the Fitzgerald: which was met with a general contempt).
I guess because of the fairly recentness of the E.F., and, at least here in MI, she has gained a signifigant reverance. Indeed as a kid, I heard of E.F. before Titanic!
To steve b. and Michael, I also go through the personal struggle between scientific/historical understanding, and respect of those who lived (or didn't) the first time around. It seems they do not always go hand in hand-that is unfortunate- and I have yet to make a peace between the two.
Yours,
Kris
First off, to Dan, and I believe Chris answered your question regarding if Fitzgerald, and the knowledge we gained from the wreck, put the current laws in motion. I admit, my above statements were based on a multitude of articles I came across in the papers during the 25th anniversary of the sinking, and with the memorial services held at the Mariner's Church in Detroit (I'm closer to Detroit than Lake Superior!)made the press, commentaries, etc. (there was even talk of a film being made of the Fitzgerald: which was met with a general contempt).
I guess because of the fairly recentness of the E.F., and, at least here in MI, she has gained a signifigant reverance. Indeed as a kid, I heard of E.F. before Titanic!
To steve b. and Michael, I also go through the personal struggle between scientific/historical understanding, and respect of those who lived (or didn't) the first time around. It seems they do not always go hand in hand-that is unfortunate- and I have yet to make a peace between the two.
Yours,
Kris