Should The Wreck Site Be Declared Off Limits

[Kris Muhvic]

steve b.- cloning! I can barely handle myself, let alone another "me"!
Kidding aside, maybe you, or anyone, can help me out on another moral dillema I ponder: with all these shipwrecks, are they truly graves, or places of death? I don't want to start any controversies- but there are other examples that make me scratch my head.
Many concentration camps in Europe are tourist attractions- somber ones, yes, still...
If that is too extreme, how about Triangle Shirtwaist Factory? The building did not burn down- fixed up after 146 garment workers lost their lives, it still stands...part of N.Y.U. now. Some desk is next to window where half a dozen girls jumped to their deaths to escape fire. What to do? If anything?
I may not be making much of a dialogue, nor do I mean any disrespect, only that the "fine line" is a most cumbersome one!

Yours,
Kris

 

[steve b]

I understand what your saying, but personally id have a hard time with it. Myself, i see something actually kind of sick in seeing death camps used as a spot for visitors. Although on this subject we walk a fine line, because there is a difference between the 2. With the death camps, you are talking about the place where innocent people were put to death by many with no remorse or respect for human life. I neve bought into this garbage of 'i was only doing my duty' nonsense. If it was me, i would have much rather suffered my fate by refusing the order. If that meant my own life, then so be it. But i Digress. If we go by the logic that death camps are now a tourist attraction, then does that mean the Oklahoma Federal Building will be one as well in 50 years? No, my main concern here is for the 1500 people that will forever lay at the bottom of the Atlantic. For years no respect was ever accorded them by salvagers, and more to the point, mere golddiggers. My contention has and still remains theyre right to a peaceful resting place outweighs any of our modern day needs, and its time that the international community recognizes this, and sees fit to let the wreck site be. I hope someday, before i leave, that i will see the day when companies that even ATTEMPT to approach the wreck are levied with massive fines. We must find a way to give these souls an eternal resting place. Doing anything other is a disgrace to theyre memory. Sory for the long winded remarks, god bless all, Steve

 

[Kris Muhvic]

steve b.- Not long winded at all! By my above statements I hope it was not taken as a justification for plunder...only things that bother me, and others, that not much outcry surrounds. However, with the camps and Oklahoma bomb site, they are considered memeorials (the OK. site has been leveled and a very impressive structure, tasteful I think, dedicated to that horror is in it's place).
Is it because Titanic is under water, not on land(in our face) and not easily accesible? I guess when it comes to the "on land" disasters, there is little choice in doing...something with these plots of tainted ground. What happens on water's surface is one thing, the final resting place is dark and peaceful-final.
Of course your point regarding profiteering...well, that is something I too have a problem with, where I do find the terrible aspect of grave-robbing at it's worst.
Anyway, I often play devil's advocate, including with themes I believe in, only to make sure I see all sides- and make up my own mind. It's just not anywhere I can have this sort of discussion. Thank you for bearing with me.

Yors-
Kris

 

[Robert Falange]

I suppose one's opinion on this is largely influenced by religious or philosophical views. So here's my "take" on this.

If someone were to visit my grave 90 years after my death and interfere with my remains, how would I feel? Well the answer is that I couldn't care less. The body which God has "lent" me for my lifetime on earth doesn't belong to me after I'm gone and has no more connection to me than, say, a suitcase or a toothbrush. People can do what they like with it. If organs can be used by doctors, so be it. If scientists or historians want to study it, then again, so be it. If someone wants to risk his life by diving to the bottom of the ocean to "steal" my valuables - then they're welcome. No-one needs to "respect" my graveyard. I won't be resting "in peace" there - God will decide where my spirit goes and my peace doesn't in any way depend on what happens to my grave. Taking the worst case I can think of: even if someone were to commit unspeakable outrages on my remains, I believe I can honestly say that it would be no concern of mine whatsoever.

The present day wreck was the scene of an appalling human tragedy back in 1912 and many people today want to show respect for those who died. But let's not overreact. The victims of the tragedy are not going to be affected one way or the other about what happens to the wreck today.

I would suggest that those who risked their lives and their capital by searching for and locating the Titanic are the ones who should decide on its fate. One might hope that artifacts will be salvaged and that questions concerning the disaster and the people involved will be "answered", within reason. But as for declaring the site "off limits", no-one has that right.

bob falange

 

[steve b]

Bobim going to respectfully disagree with you on this. When, on this earth, you are given a final resting place, you are entitled to it at peaceful eternal sleep. My problem with the entire thing is, if we are taught to respect the sanctity ofd human life, why can we not do so in death as well? Once you fail to recognize the needs and accomplishments, and further more, the RIGHTS of those that came came before you, then i worry about humanity

 

[wendi parker]

When i think about anyone going down there at all for anything other then research, i think of the book 'Something's Alive on Titanic.' i know its just fiction but you really have to wonder about what happened to all their energy when they died. you hear all the time about people dying violent deaths or dying before their time and they end up this negative energy. what if that happened down there....
I dont know what to believe about the whole thing.
I think that we've been down there disturbing their graves enough. we should let them rest in peace.
like at a cemetery. do we get right down in the grave, no. we stand above and pay our respects. it would be nice if we could do that for Titanic. stand above it and pay respects.
but on the other hand, i would love to see more pictures or would love for ballard or whoever to explore her more.
i just dont want everyday people to go down there. why should they?

wendi

 

[steve b]

Wendy-I agree 100%. For some odd reason all i can think of when i think of the goldiggers who constantly go there in search of lost treasure, i think back to the Los Angeles riots of the 80s after the OJ Simpson trial. I was never more disgusted with humanity then i was at that point. These were people jsut looking for any lame excuse to justify thievery, and to me its the same image i get when i think of the salvage operations. What in Gods name makes these people think have any right touching any of these items there, let alone being at the site? It is a place where most everything anyone had in this life was carried with them, in hopes oif finding a better life. The dreams they had were suddenly shattered, and theyre life long possesions lay at the bottom of the ocean floor. Do people not have one once of dignity or respect for these poor people? What in Gods name doeS ANYONE have doing there? No, im sorry, but that little piece of of earth should forever belong to them. Those people died a horrible death, and while they had 2000 people with them, many dies alone and terrified. This is the place the left this world and went to another, and its high time science and everyone else recognized this. They should be given peace. Its bad enough they had to die such horrible deaths. But to see theyre personal belongings picked up like a riot scene, thats the equal of someone spiting on someones grave..Enoughs enough/..Sorry for the emotional tone but thats how i feel

 

[David R. McCann]

Greetings To All,
I'm relatively new to the site, but I would like to offer some food for thought on why we should limit dives to Titanic. On a Discovery Channel Special in 1998, "Titanic Live", remarks had been made that the "rusticle" damage was significantly worse in 1998 than it had appeared in 1996. And it seems most reports indicate that it is continuing to get worse. Little is known about these "rusticles", other than the fact that each successive dive seems to report more "rusticle" damage. When Titanic was first found, she appeared to be in very good shape, considering the number of years she had been below the ocean's surface. Now that she has been located, there have been a considerably higher number of dives to her over the past few years. Just a thought here, what if these dives are accelerating the degradation of Titanic. We are alien to this bottom of the sea world. Like a bee pollinates the plants, each dive could be carrying the "pollen" to enhance the growth of the "rusticles". Until our arrival, there was probably very little movement down there. Now each time a thruster is turned on, or each time a piece of the ship is bumped by an R O V, we see pieces of the "rusticles" crumble and float through the water, like pollen floating through the air on a windy day. Whether this theory is true or not, who knows. But it does make good food for thought. Have a good day all.
Best,
Dave M.

 

[Michael H. Standart]

Hi David, you kight want to check out Dr Cullimore's article on ET about biodeterioration of the RMS Titanic for some more insights on this. Offhand, I would offer the opinion that the dives in and of themselves have little impact on the accelerated deterioration of the ship as the actual numbers of dives and the time spent on site is reletively low. Most of the time, the Titanic is alone and unmolested.

The problem lies with the iron eating microbes which are doing the deed and they live right there on the bottom! They just keep on doing their thing whether anybody is poking around or not. When you get right down to it, dives to the wreck in the future will have to be conducted with considerably more care as the deterioration will make any such poking around much more dangerous then it already is.

Cordially,
Michael H. Standart

 

[David R. McCann]

Michael,
Thank you for the info. I had been curious as to what had happened during the studies conducted by Dr. Cullimore back in 1998. Hopefully we can all learn more about her, before the deterioration claims her for ever. Thanks.
Best,
Dave McCann

 

[steve b]

Interesting aside to this discussion, because i know its always most likely been impractical to try and even think about attempting it, but im sure there have been a few that smelled money and thought they could pull off this stunt. Let us suppose, for a moment, disregarding Titanics size, that at one point in time somebody wanted to raise her?
My first question in this regard would be, at what point did the ship detoriorate so badly that it is physically impossible to raise her just because of the damage done by the ocean over the course of time? Would there ever have been a window of oppurtunity to do such a thing, and if so for how many years before the elements woiuld have rusted the body so bad that it would be impossible?
And secondly, this is another fickle area for this subject, just who would have rights to her if she was raised? I know im speaking on hypothetical terms here, but the thought has always interested me. The more and more i think about though, im glad she cant be raised. I have no desire to see a war over salvage rights and display accomadations once she returns being waged by some little guy with glasses whos eyes are lighting up like a cash register and his bells ringing like one

 

[Michael H. Standart]

I think it was impractical from day one, but not because the iron eating bacteria had a taste for wrecked ships. The structural damage done when the ship broke up was just too substantial.

An interesting example to consider was the attempt by the Glomar Explorer to raise a sunken Soviet missile submarine. The ship was reletively intact, and hadn't been on the bottom long and getting it in the grapples wasn't the problem. However on the way up, some of the grapples broke, and a section of the boat amounting to about two thirds of her length broke away. All they got was the bow.

Cordially,
Michael H. Standart

 

[Beverly J. Crowder]

Yes, I was going to bring up the Glomar also! Must be we watch the same shows Michael!! LOL

I concur, I believe it was totally impractical from day one also, and I really wish that they would have left the "BIG piece" down there with the rest of the ship.

I really love to see the artifacts and all, but I still think it should remain a tomb, to be visited, not touched.

Beverly

 

[Michael H. Standart]

I suppose common interests breed common viewing habits.

And since were on the subject of documentaries, I understand the Discovery Channel is presenting thier show on The Real Jack Dawson and Titanic, Lost Ship, Lost Souls on the 22cnd of August.

I'll be having my tape ready!

Cordially,
Michael H. Standart

 

[steve b]

Its funny to think though, what a stir would have been caused if even the bow was able to raised of Titanic. Somehow i picture a lot of laywers and long days in court arguing who has rights to it..Kinda sickening actually. In a weird way, in terms of that, the ebst thing that could have happened to Titanic in this respect happened by where the accident occured. Thank god many potentila grave robbers and gold diggers have been turned away by the daunting task over going to those depths of the ocean..Still, it hasnt stopped enough sadly