Herbert Henry Hilliard

[D Hilliard]

As a living relative of a person who gave up their life for the survival of another person on board the Titanic, I would like to compliment you on the fine work you have done. Our ancestors would be very grateful. Our relative was a First Class Passenger, Mr Herbert Henry Hilliard. We have very limited information on him, and if anyone has any, we would be very grateful.

D Hilliard
London Ontario

 

[Ron Oden]

As a living relative of a person who gave up their life for the survival of another person on board the Titanic, I would like to compliment you on the fine work you have done. Our ancestors would be very grateful. Our relative was a First Class Passenger, Mr Herbert Henry Hilliard. We have very limited information on him, and if anyone has any, we would be very grateful.

D Hilliard
London Ontario

Hello D Hilliard. This is Ron Oden Jr. Son of Sandy and Ron Oden. Sandy Oden, before married was Sandy Hilliard, daughter of Walter G Hilliard, the son of Herbert Henry HIlliard. Walter Hilliard, known to me as “Bumpy” was my grandfather. He told me stories of his father, not much about his mother. Bumpy was a Titanic enthusiast, which rubbed off on me. We have a postcard from Herbert Hilliard (a copy actually) sent FROM the Titanic before it departed North Hampton. Unrelated, I’ve been to London Ontario, once for three weeks for work. My wife, children and I will be visiting Quebec City in early December.

 

[Arun Vajpey]

I know that the OP was posted by a guest and is now almost 25 years old but I was intrigued by this comment below:

As a living relative of a person who gave up their life for the survival of another person on board the Titanic

To what particular incident was the OP referring? I have done a bit of search and none of the leading Titanic works even mentions Herbert Hilliard except his brief bio on ET. The only other reference that I could find was in the Limitation of Liability Hearings about his widow Sarah Hilliard making a claim.

We have a postcard from Herbert Hilliard (a copy actually) sent FROM the Titanic before it departed North Hampton.

Just for the record, the Titanic departed from Southampton. Northampton is a smaller inland city in the UK, nowhere near the sea.

 

[Arun Vajpey]

I found this on ET; It is an excerpt from the memorial Service conducted by Rev F G Potter on behalf of Titanic victims McCarthy and Hilliard at Allston Church on 29th April 1912 & covered by the Boston Globe.

"Mr Hilliard and Mr McCarthy standing out in the strength of their Christian characters, standing aside to help women and children......"

It is quite possible that Mr Hilliard and his colleague Mr McCarthy did help women and children to board but the duo would not have been unique in those actions. Others like Edgar Meyer, Percival & Richard White etc were seen by survivors doing exactly the same thing. Therefore, I wonder if a specific incident was reported where Herbert Hilliard "gave up his life for survival of another person" as quoted by the OP 25 years ago.

 

[Thomas Krom]

And based on that Timothy John McCarthy his body was recovered, who was his fellow buyer for the Boston department store Jordan Marsh and friend with whom he shared stateroom E-46 it seems beyond any doubt that they both were on the upper decks during the final minutes of the Titanic.

 

[Ron Oden]

I have always been told my Great Grandfather, Herbert Hilliard, gave up a seat on a lifeboat for a woman, and perhaps her child. I was also told, no way to confirm, that when the Carpathia reached New York the woman somehow contacted Herbert’s wife, Sarah, I believe, and informed her that Herbert gave up his seat on the lifeboat her her and her child.

 

[Ron Oden]

Attached is the letter from my Grandfather that he wrote on the Titanic.

 

[Arun Vajpey]

And based on that Timothy John McCarthy his body was recovered, who was his fellow buyer for the Boston department store Jordan Marsh and friend with whom he shared stateroom E-46 it seems beyond any doubt that they both were on the upper decks during the final minutes of the Titanic.

Agreed, but that still does not explain what the OP meant by saying that Hilliard gave-up his life to save another. Are we missing something here? If so, I certainly have not found any clues to that either on the web or in any of several leading Titanic works that I searched.

 

[Ron Oden]

Attached is the letter from my Grandfather that he wrote on the Titanic.

Great Grandfather

 

[Arun Vajpey]

I have always been told my Great Grandfather, Herbert Hilliard, gave up a seat on a lifeboat for a woman, and perhaps her child. I was also told, no way to confirm, that when the Carpathia reached New York the woman somehow contacted Herbert’s wife, Sarah, I believe, and informed her that Herbert gave up his seat on the lifeboat her her and her child.

With all due respect, there have been other very similar unsubstantiated stories about Titanic victims having offered there seats to someone else who then survived and met the victims' family etc. You might have read a similar story from people claiming to be relatives of genuine Titanic victim Manuel Uruchurtu (RIP) who is supposed to have offered his seat to a lady etc - a story that is almost certainly a fabrication. In the case of Mr Hilliard (RIP) as far as I know - and I am happy to be corrected on this - there is no record of a lady passenger who told anyone that Mr Hilliard gave up his seat for her; moreover, no survivor on any lifeboat mentioned such an incident. Had such a sacrifice been made, I am sure several survivors in the vicinity would have mentioned it repeatedly to the press and elsewhere. Therefore, with apologies IMO that story that you were told has to be viewed with skepticism until proven otherwise.

Furthermore, we have to consider possible circumstances under which a male passenger already in a lifeboat could have offered his place to a lady. Such an event almost certainly could not have occurred on the port side boats where Wilde and Lightoller were enforcing a strict "women & children only" policy except for a few that they allowed in to help (Major Peuchen, Charles Williams). Of course, a few male interlopers did sneak into port boats, but they obviously could not have been the ones then offering seats to someone else. Mr Hilliard and Mr McCarthy shared First Class cabin E-46, a port side room and so the chances are that they were mingling with other First Class passengers on the same side of the boat deck after the collision.

While men were allowed into starboard side lifeboats, it was only if there was room and no women or children to take those places. The only starboard lifeboats that were filled almost to capacity were probably #11 and #15; AFAIK, there is no statement from any of the survivors on those boats (or any other) about an incident where a gentleman got out of a lifeboat to give up his place to a lady. Furthermore, during the loading of Lifeboats #13 and #15, the crew were actively searching for women and children to fill the remaining places and #15 eventually had more men than women in it. Therefore, a circumstance where a man allowed into a lifeboat then got out of it to allow a lady in his place is very unlikely to have arisen and if it had, would have been widely noticed, admired and commented upon.

 

[Danelle Simonelli]

I have a question about Herbert Henry Hilliard's listing as a British citizen. Ancestry has a U.S. naturalization record for him as follows:

Name Herbert Henry Hilliard
Naturalization Age 28
Record Type Naturalization
Birth Date 29 Jun 1867
Birth Place England
Naturalization Date 7 Sep 1895
Court District Massachusetts

All the information matches. So should he be listed as a U.S. citizen?

There are also ship manifests that list him as a U.S. citizen -- e.g., the Amerika, arriving in New York on July 2, 1910, and the Cymric, arriving in Boston on Sept. 7, 1908.

 

[Arun Vajpey]

I have a question about Herbert Henry Hilliard's listing as a British citizen. Ancestry has a U.S. naturalization record for him

Interesting research and observation.

I wonder if there was a facility for dual citizenship between the UK and the US in those days? If so, businessmen like Herbert Hilliard might have found it convenient. He was a buyer for Jordan Marsh and even after settling with his family in Massachesettes, travelled to Europe and back frequently.

 

[Encyclopedia Titanica]

Will take a look, don't think I have seen the naturalization certificate before. Our nationality listing isn't specifically a citizenship listing, we say English/Scottish/Welsh etc. rather than British for example - and you'll often see people with more than one nationality listed; therefore it would be reasonable to add American to Hilliard as well as English.

 

[Danelle Simonelli]

I work at the Ellis Island National Museum of Immigration and I know for certain that the United States did not recognize dual citizenship in 1912. That's a development that arose through a series of court decisions in the last decades of the 20th century, finally accepted by the U.S. Government in 1990.

Thank you for clarifying how Encyclopedia Titanica uses the word "nationality". I'm used to a more strict definition that comes from doing lots of research in immigration records. Ship manifests coming into the United States in the Titanic/Ellis Island era were drawn up according to U.S. Government specifications, because the manifests became America's official immigration records. The manifest definition of "nationality" is the country of which the person is a citizen. There's another listing on the manifest entitled "race or people" and that's where a person's ethnicity would be listed. For example, on the Titanic survivor manifest, J. Bruce Ismay's nationality is listed as British and his ethnicity is listed as English.

 

[Arun Vajpey]

I work at the Ellis Island National Museum of Immigration

Very interesting. What did you think of the History Channel programme "Ellis Island" that was broadcast some years ago? I have the DVD release and thought that it was interesting.

The manifest definition of "nationality" is the country of which the person is a citizen.

Thanks for the above post Danelle; it was very informative. We have similar issues in the UK regarding Ethnicity-Citizenship. For example, I am of Indian ethnicity but born in the UK; I was taken back to India as a baby and grew up and got educated there, including my professional training. I was 29 when I arrived back in the UK in January 1985 and have lived here since as a British Citizen with a UK Passport. People expect me to identify myself as "British-Indian", like the overwhelming majority of ethnic Indians who live in the UK, including many who were born and raised here. In the past few years, India had allowed us to become OCIs (Overseas Citizen of India) which allows certain priviliges while remaining a British citizen.

I noted that ethnicity plays a very large part in personal identity in the UK, even more so than the US. Thus, depending on their family background, a person can be "British-Indian", "British-Pakistani", "Afro-Caribbean British" etc. But ethnic Continental Europeans who have settled in the UK, the White folk, almost always call themselves just "British" and seldom "British-German", "British-Italian" etc.