Was Lightoller brave?

[Haashir Ahmad]

Lightoller might have filled the lifeboats half full, and denied men the chance to get into a lifeboat, costing many lives. However, was he brave? He was on the ship and helped make sure every boat was lowered, he might have been panicking or arrogant, but was he brave?

In m opinion, he was brave as was the whole crew, and other officers.

 

[William Oakes]

Contrary to modern depictions, Andrews actually gave Captain Smith a much more pessimistic timeline saying that he thought the ship had about an hour to live.
Smith decided it was his most important priority to get the boats launched first, and worry about filling them later.
His orders were women and children first, and get the boats launched.
He also ordered the boats to stand-by.
He had planned to fill them to capacity from the gangway doors.
The boats ignored Smith's order to stand-by and rowed away.
This, in spite of him, utilizing his megaphone ordering them to return to the ship.
Was Lightoller Brave?
He certainly did his duty and stayed with the ship to the end.
I suppose Bravey is a subjective term and a matter of opinion.
Given the cricumstances and what he had to work with, my opinion of Lightoller is that he did all that he could.

 

[Jude]

Hindsight is a wonderful thing – if only we had it when we were in the middle of dealing with an emergency, perhaps we wouldn’t make any mistakes! Tragically, as with most man-made disasters, it’s never one mistake, but a whole load of them, plus a breakdown in communications and surely the Titanic was a prime case of this.

In his “Titanic and other ships”, Lightoller states that he was not aware of the extent of the damage or told that the ship would go down. He assumed that she had been dealt a glancing blow, which had opened up one or two of the compartments and the ship had been designed to withstand such an accident. He wrote:

“There had been no chance or time to make enquiries, but I figured up in my own mind that …….. she would go so far until she balanced her buoyancy, and there she would remain…”

He also indicated that he was not given any order to fill the lifeboats, but when he saw the Captain, cupped his hands and yelled into his ears (this was during the noise of the steam) “Hadn’t we better get the women and children into the lifeboats?” The main reason for doing this was that he could see a steamer that he thought was coming towards them and again, he wrongly assumed that they would be able to transfer all the passengers onto it.

“My idea was that I would lower the boats with a few people in each and when safely in the water fill them up from the gangway doors on the lower decks, and transfer them to the other ship.

…it is a risky business at the best of times to attempt to lower a boat between seventy and eighty feet at night time, filled with people who are not “boatwise.” It is, unfortunately, the rule rather than the exception for some mishap to occur when lowering boats loaded with people, who, through no fault of their own, lack this boat sense. in addition, the strain is almost too much to expect of boats and falls under ordinary conditions.

Was he brave? Impossible to answer. Did he do his duty to his highest conception of what was right? Yes.

 

[Jenna Offerty]

As has been said in a variety of quotes, bravery isn't a total absence of fear, but the ability to move forward and do what you must despite it. So, yes, I think Lightoller (as well as the other officers) was brave. He completed his duties without panicking and bumbling about in alarm, elected to stay on the ship instead of taking the opportunity to go away in charge of a lifeboat, and managed keep the overturned and awash collapsible B balanced and almost everyone on it alive.

 

[James Murdoch]

As has been documented elsewhere, Lightoller didn't even believe that the ship would sink. Contrary to popular belief, there never was that meeting of all the officers in the bridge.

I'd say as late as 1am-1:10am he didn't believe the ship would actually founder: to quote the man himself from "I was there" on BBC Radio.

Just when I first realized how desperately serious things were I don't know, but I do know that before many boats were away I got to piling more and more people into them;

The first boat left at 12.40am, just how many boats he means by "before many" I'd guess maybe 2 or 3. But that's entirely my interpretation.

It also explains his rationale in instructing the gangway door be opened, if memory serves me correctly this occurred around 12.45am.

Was he Brave? Absolutely. All the officers were, stoically going about their duty and maintaining relative calm until close to the very end.

 

[Jude]

Thanks James for the quote from "I was there" - I've heard it many times but had never thought to write it down.

This is a refreshing thread after the many attacking Lights.

I went back to my notes and came across this, which is also relevant to the whole sorry story of the sinking:

"Mr William Henry Taylor…prior to signing onto the Titanic had served on the Orotava. He was rescued in Lifeboat 15 and later testified before the US Senate Inquiry.

...He was also one of many who said they saw another ship's light in the distance which did not come to render aid. He added, later, that there was a lot of joking and 'skylarking' about the Titanic, even after it struck the iceberg. He simply stated it was understood among the crew that there was nothing to fear, the ship was unsinkable."

 

[James Murdoch]

I wonder who did know she was doomed from the time Andrews told Smith she had one hour. I would guess he would have confided in Wilde, since as well as being C/O he brought him over from Olympic and removed Blair from the Ship. Murdoch too since he witnessed the impact, even if it was just a glancing blow. In saying that, a crew member who was smoking on the forecastle at the time of the impact-I think, was it Hendrickson? And perhaps C.E Bell, although he is quoted as telling Ismay that he was confident the pumps could get ahead of the water. Bell would know the ship pretty well, and Smith did send a note down to him so I am enclined to believe he knew the severity of the damage.

As for the wireless operators I know at roughly 12.25 Smith asked them to send the "regulation call for distress", which was actually SOS, and had been since the Berlin convention of 1906. Technically, “CQD” was not a distress call at all. The press of the day ran with CQD meaning Come Quick-Danger. In reality it meant “CQ” (all stations ..... anybody out there listening) “D” (I am in need of assistance) That assistance could be anything on the scale of the severity, from someone going overboard to actually sinking. It would generally always be followed up with "What's the matter"?. To dispel another "myth", Titanic was not the first ship to transmit  SOS, that 'accolade', actually belongs to the The American steamer Arapahoe, sending it in 1909.

Anyway, I have realised I have went off on a little tangent, there is a great article on here discussing wireless conventions of the day that I read a few days ago--i'll Try and dig it out my browsing history and post for anyone concerned. Back to my main question, who knew, within roughly ten minutes of Smith and Andrews the ship was doomed? Would Andrews consult the rest of the guarantee group? Was Ismay present at this conversation?

Any other input, is as always most welcome. Have a great day.

James

 

[James Murdoch]

Thanks James for the quote from "I was there" - I've heard it many times but had never thought to write it down.

This is a refreshing thread after the many attacking Lights.

I went back to my notes and came across this, which is also relevant to the whole sorry story of the sinking:

"Mr William Henry Taylor…prior to signing onto the Titanic had served on the Orotava. He was rescued in Lifeboat 15 and later testified before the US Senate Inquiry.

...He was also one of many who said they saw another ship's light in the distance which did not come to render aid. He added, later, that there was a lot of joking and 'skylarking' about the Titanic, even after it struck the iceberg. He simply stated it was understood among the crew that there was nothing to fear, the ship was unsinkable."

Incase you feel the need for any further transcription Jude



Best,

James

 

[Thomas Krom]

I would guess he would have confided in Wilde, since as well as being C/O he brought him over from Olympic and removed Blair from the Ship.

Although it is a popular story that Captain Smith made the arrangement of Wilde to become chief officer of the Titanic we know from personal letters that Wilde knew he was going aboard Titanic as early as the 30th of March, 1912 while he was still aboard the Olympic. Additionally, he received a telegram from Liverpool headquarters at 2.30pm on the 9th of April. So, while captain Smith may have been involved in the decision making process, the evidence is that it ultimately came from the White Star Line management in Liverpool.

Bell would know the ship pretty well, and Smith did send a note down to him so I am enclined to believe he knew the severity of the damage.

The note in question appeared to have been an order and not a message, since chief engineer Bell responded that he would get it done as soon as possible.

Back to my main question, who knew, within roughly ten minutes of Smith and Andrews the ship was doomed?

Fourth officer Boxhall is the only officer of whom we certainly know that captain Smith told him about the seriousness of the situation, the rest of the surviving officers' made no mention that they were told about it.

Would Andrews consult the rest of the guarantee group?

Without any orders the assistant manager of the electrical works of Harland and Wolff William Henry Marsh Parr and the outside foreman of the engine works Anthony Wood Frost went to assist chief electrician Peter Sloan and his men at the main feeder switchboard. There is a chance that during the damage inspection Thomas Andrews Jr bumped into either Mr. Parr or Mr. Chisholm and told him about how serious the situation was.

Was Ismay present at this conversation?

Mr. Ismay mentioned that he didn't saw Thomas Andrews Jr at all during the sinking. When captain Smith returned from his second damage inspection he, purser McElroy and Dr. O'Loughlin went to the stateroom of Mr. Ismay (B-52 in the Louis XVI style, B-54 in the Empire style and B-56 in the Harland and Wolff bedroom A style) as witnessed by first class stewardesses Gold (who had her cabin on B-deck along with fellow first class stewardess Martin) and Jessop (who was making her way up). A surviving member of the Baxter family also told that Quigg Baxter spoke to captain Smith and Mr. Ismay just outside his mother's stateroom (B-58 in the Louis XVI style). First class stewardesses Kate Gold overheard Captain Smith say to Mr. Ismay:
"We had better get the boats out.”
Captain Smith at the time knew that the ship was critically damaged to the extent that there was a considerable chance the ship wouldn't stay afloat (however, he didn't knew how long she would had at the time). When captain Smith was informed about how long the ship had by Thomas Andrews Jr at around 12:25 Mr. Ismay was overseeing the progress of the starboard side lifeboats.

 

[James Murdoch]

Nice to hear from you Thomas, it has been a while. I thoroughly appreciate your answers to the questions posed.

I hope that things are going better for you now, given what you had been going through last year.

All the best to you,

James

 

[Thomas Krom]

Nice to hear from you Thomas, it has been a while. I thoroughly appreciate your answers to the questions posed.

Hello James,

It is nice to hear from you too, how have you been? I am terribly sorry for my late response, there came some matters in-between. One additional detail I forgot to mention is that captain Smith reporting the news to Mr. Ismay was at about 12:12/12:15. Based on Mr. Ismay's reaction he most likely told him something very serious at that point, considering he turned as pale as the nightshirt under his pyjamas.

I hope that things are going better for you now, given what you had been going through last year.

While things are going better, with putting all the positive energy into it that the upcoming year will be better in every way then July 2021 to July 2022, I do have bumped into a bit of a wall at my attempt to finally find some closure on the disappearance of Kate. The disappearance of the brightest star in my life, to whom I own every heartbeat and breath of air in my lungs considering she saved my life, still haunts me each day.


I hope to hear from you soon

Kind regards,

Thomas

 

[Steven Christian]

I guess bravery under most circumstances would be a subjective thing. Some not. Here's my 2 cents on it for what it's worth. I tried to find the time line of the different times Captain Smith gave the "everyman for himself" order. That would mean to me "game over boys, she's going down". So any of the crew who stayed to continue loading the remaining boats, helping people, ect I would put them in the brave category. Cheers.

Off topic sort of but maybe not. There's an older lesser known movie that deals with what makes a hero?

They Came to Cordura (1959) - IMDb

They Came to Cordura: Directed by Robert Rossen. With Gary Cooper, Rita Hayworth, Van Heflin, Tab Hunter. An army major, himself guilty of cowardice, is asked to recommend soldiers for the Congressional Medal of Honor during the Mexican Border Incursion of 1916.

www.imdb.com

 

[James Murdoch]

Hi Steven, as always I hope life is treating you well

I'm pretty certain that Senior Wireless Operator Phillips stayed at his post until the very, very end, even after the "Every man" order was given. The last Wireless transmission was received--although jarbled, by I am pretty sure the Virginia at 2.17am to give an idea as to just how fine he cut it. That is beyond the call of duty in my opinion.

I am sure Lightoller said Phillips made it Collapsible B but succumbed to exposure in the water before they reached the Carpathia.

We will never know what went on in the engine room that night in the final hour, since all those who stayed after they were relieved-died. It is a death I could not fathom, being in the bowels of the ship as she went down. It must have been truly horrific. I am not afraid to admit they are stronger men than I, I would have made for the boat deck immediately when given the option, had I known the severity of the situation.

 

[Steven Christian]

Doing well. Thank you and hope you are too. Yes Phillips stayed after the order. Certainley a brave man in my opinion. Can never know for sure what was going thru his mind. My guess is he might have been hoping that a closer ship (Californian) or others might come online and hear what was going on. Some have questioned some of their actions that night. Not me. He could have left and tried for a boat.Their loyalty was to the Marconi Co. Not WSL. I read that one of the stewards had reported that Smith had given the order with his bullhorn but it didn't give a time. I'll go look for it again when I get the time.

 

[Jason D. Tiller]

Hello James,

I'm pretty certain that Senior Wireless Operator Phillips stayed at his post until the very, very end, even after the "Every man" order was given. The last Wireless transmission was received--although jarbled, by I am pretty sure the Virginia at 2.17am to give an idea as to just how fine he cut it.

The last transmission may have been transmitted ten minutes before, at 2:07 a.m. It was a general CQD MGY call, according to Harold Bride. However, no one answered. Phillips and Harold Bride unsure that they were still transmitting, abandoned the wireless room.

I am sure Lightoller said Phillips made it Collapsible B but succumbed to exposure in the water before they reached the Carpathia.

Lights was incorrect; he makes the story sound very convincing but yet, there isn't a shred of evidence to support it. According to Bride, Philips was last seen walking aft. Bride never actually saw Philips on the upturned Collapsible B, he was only told. I recommend reading through this link, for more information: The Fate of Jack Philips