Charles Lightoller
- Thread starter Neil McRae
- Start date
Inger Sheil
Member
One of the jobs on the backburner is pinpointing the date Lightoller left the WSL - I keep hoping someone will beat me to it (anyone out there nailed it yet?). I do have a few specific dates for voyages he made in her dating to the end of 1919, and I did call up some of the Celtic's official logs for the early 20s to try and narrow it down, but Lightoller had apparently already left by the dates I looked at. I'd love to pinpoint the exact date he left, as I'd be very interested to see if he was serving in her when de Valera was smuggled back from America aboard the Celtic (suspect the dates don't match up, but one can always hope!).
Tracy Smith
Member
I got curious about this myself, so I went to look in Stenson's bio of him. Much to my chagrin, he does not give a specific date. On page 315, he merely states that Lightoller retired "at the beginning of the 1920s".
Stenson does, however, leave some hints. He states on page 292 that at the time of Lightoller's retirement, his two eldest sons were in their teens, who were born about 1904 and 1907 (not sure of exact dates on these). So, 1920 would be about the earliest time for him to have retired, as the younger son would have been 13 then. On page 293, Stenson also mentions the jobs Lightoller had after his retirement and his trouble finding suitable employment because of his age, stating that he was "nearing fifty". Lightoller turned fifty in 1924, so I suppose his retirement had to have taken place between 1920 and 1924, probably closer to 1920 than to 1924.
It seems odd to me that this is not already generally known. Seems strange that Stenson did not pin this date down when he wrote the Lightoller bio.
Stenson does, however, leave some hints. He states on page 292 that at the time of Lightoller's retirement, his two eldest sons were in their teens, who were born about 1904 and 1907 (not sure of exact dates on these). So, 1920 would be about the earliest time for him to have retired, as the younger son would have been 13 then. On page 293, Stenson also mentions the jobs Lightoller had after his retirement and his trouble finding suitable employment because of his age, stating that he was "nearing fifty". Lightoller turned fifty in 1924, so I suppose his retirement had to have taken place between 1920 and 1924, probably closer to 1920 than to 1924.
It seems odd to me that this is not already generally known. Seems strange that Stenson did not pin this date down when he wrote the Lightoller bio.
Fiona Nitschke
Member
Tracy, it's not you but Patrick Stenson who should be chagrined: Stenson's book is a cow for dates. [Insert the bad language of your preference here] Mind you, Lightoller himself isn't offering anything specific in 'T & Other Ships':
Here's hoping Inger or someone else can follow this one up at some point. There's obviously heaps of people (perhaps including Stenson?) who'd be interested in that particular date.
Cheers,
F
From the little informaton available and Inger's check of Celtic's logs, it seems to have been early 1920 rather than the early 1920s - but who knows?
Here's hoping Inger or someone else can follow this one up at some point. There's obviously heaps of people (perhaps including Stenson?) who'd be interested in that particular date.
Cheers,
F
JHPravatiner
Member
The latest I have for Lights is a voyage on Celtic making fast in the US on Oct. 22, 1919, wherein he was Chief (natch). A few odd quirks to the record, such as the fact he's recorded as "Lightolla", and his birthdate looks written as 3/30/70 (instead of 74), but undoubtedly him, birthplace being Chorley and such.
There're another few 1919 Celtic records (May, July, September) but that's the latest I've seen.
So as he likely arrived back in England in the first few days of November, anytime after that. I'm afraid that's the best I can offer y'all.
Joan
There're another few 1919 Celtic records (May, July, September) but that's the latest I've seen.
So as he likely arrived back in England in the first few days of November, anytime after that. I'm afraid that's the best I can offer y'all.
Joan
JHPravatiner
Member
Oh yes, and there's another version of the same Oct. 22, '19 Celtic record where he's listed as Charles *F.* Lightoller (odd looking "H", to be sure), and the age listed as 49 (which fits the 3/30/70 typo--ermm--"printo" ? in the other one). Have his height pretty well in mind as well, as it seems fair consistent throughout the records. Not that the little aside here adds anything to the answer of the question, sorry!
Inger Sheil
Member
Are these off the Ellis Island Records, Joan? I have a December 1919 voyage listed for him as well on the Celtic from another source.
JHPravatiner
Member
'Deed. Not much opportunity to go running around conducting research at this point in my life, well, not *historical* research. Plenty of *marine* research going on here at university. Too bad my weekend on the ocean for research was last weekend and not this, the 90th anniversary.
As to Lights' retirement, all right, so it was at least Jan. '20. (shrugs)
Actually, I think I've found records for all four surviving officers for voyages 1919-1921. Ha, so much for the "Lowe left the sea right after WWI and never sailed again" tale. Didn't sound quite right to me...
Anyhow, prize for pinpointing Lightoller's retirement from WS is up for grabs. (grins) Have a little too much research on the ocean itself to do to try that, but should prove interesting to find out!
As to Lights' retirement, all right, so it was at least Jan. '20. (shrugs)
Actually, I think I've found records for all four surviving officers for voyages 1919-1921. Ha, so much for the "Lowe left the sea right after WWI and never sailed again" tale. Didn't sound quite right to me...
Anyhow, prize for pinpointing Lightoller's retirement from WS is up for grabs. (grins) Have a little too much research on the ocean itself to do to try that, but should prove interesting to find out!
Inger Sheil
Member
Unfortunately there's no complete source for all the voyages mercantile mariners made - the Ellis Island records don't even provide us with a complete listing for their NY crossings (in addition to those included in the Ellis Island records, I've found other NY trips Lowe made - you're correct that the story Lowe retired immediately post-WWI and never went to sea again is, as we say in the UK, a 'pile of pants'). There are a number of sources that can be used to track their careers - Lloyds Captain's Register (which is not restricted to ships' masters, but is not complete), the CR10s, the Ellis Island records and of course official logs and crew agreements. I'm still compiling material from all these sources and few others.
In order to trace Lightoller, I've picked the earliest possible end of the dates (December 1919) and called up agreements for the Celtic for a randomly high date in the early 20s. As he doesn't appear in them, I'm working backwards to 1919. Unfortunately, not all the official logs and crew agreements are stored in the one location - indeed, they're scattered across two continents. One reason I'm hoping some either comes up with an answer using this method or another more effective one is that it will save me the trouble of fishing around! I recently became aware of a source that might have the answer, but I'll have to do some travelling to get to it.
In order to trace Lightoller, I've picked the earliest possible end of the dates (December 1919) and called up agreements for the Celtic for a randomly high date in the early 20s. As he doesn't appear in them, I'm working backwards to 1919. Unfortunately, not all the official logs and crew agreements are stored in the one location - indeed, they're scattered across two continents. One reason I'm hoping some either comes up with an answer using this method or another more effective one is that it will save me the trouble of fishing around! I recently became aware of a source that might have the answer, but I'll have to do some travelling to get to it.
JHPravatiner
Member
Best of luck to you, then!
Pat Winship
Member
Ing, if the second continent is this one, scream, or something. 
Pat
Pat
Inger Sheil
Member
Lol! Yah - it's that one, Pat...but not the same country :-( I'll talk to you about it next time we run into each other on mIRC, however, as perhaps something can be worked out.
Pat Winship
Member
This thread can finally be completed. Lightoller's resignation took effect on February 14, 1920. One of the Lightoller documents sold December 24, 2003 at Sotheby's, London gave the date.
See this link:
http://search.sothebys.com/jsps/live/lot/LotDetail.jsp?lot_id=459NQ
See this link:
http://search.sothebys.com/jsps/live/lot/LotDetail.jsp?lot_id=459NQ
Inger Sheil
Member
Excellent work, Pat! I was chuffed when you sent me the notification that you'd pinpointed the date - looks like he may well have done at least one voyage subsequent to December 1919 in early 1920. Unfortunately, it confirms that he wasn't aboard for Eamon De Valera's return to Ireland aboard the Celtic in December 1920.
Michael H. Standart
Member
Great find here. Any chance this information can be added to Light's bio???
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